Hattori knives

Gaston444 said:
What I am saying is that if is factory-made it will likely have better edge-holding than a custom made knife, and if that factory is in Japan, then it will be better than most other factories, and if on top of that it is stainless, then you really have something...

The bottom of the barrel in my experience, as for apex stability when chopping Maple at or just under 15 dps, is S30V (really high end custom), CPM 154cm (custom), and 440C (Neeley custom).

From the two CPM steels I have tried, and which micro-folded even at thick over 15 dps angles with astonishing ease, I would avoid anything made in CPM steels like the black plague... Yes the micro-folds were very tiny, but they appeared instantly on Maple...

Among the best edge-holding I ever saw was some cheap low-cost Parker-Imai 9.8" Buckmaster clone from a factory in Japan (so a low-price factory stainless with just "440" stamped on the blade), some of the Al Mar Aus-6 knives (factory), and the only good customs I've seen (out of many) were Lile in D-2 and a Colin Cox in 440C... I'd trust a cheap factory knife over most customs (as long as the factory is not Chinese or Taiwanese), no matter what the disparity in price...

Gaston
Click to expand...

so just to be clear here you are stating that people are paying hundreds of dollars for a name more or less?
 
Gaston444 said:
What I am saying is that if is factory-made it will likely have better edge-holding than a custom made knife, and if that factory is in Japan, then it will be better than most other factories, and if on top of that it is stainless, then you really have something...

The bottom of the barrel in my experience, as for apex stability when chopping Maple at or just under 15 dps, is S30V (really high end custom), CPM 154cm (custom), and 440C (Neeley custom).

From the two CPM steels I have tried, and which micro-folded even at thick over 15 dps angles with astonishing ease, I would avoid anything made in CPM steels like the black plague... Yes the micro-folds were very tiny, but they appeared instantly on Maple...

Among the best edge-holding I ever saw was some cheap low-cost Parker-Imai 9.8" Buckmaster clone from a factory in Japan (so a low-price factory stainless with just "440" stamped on the blade), some of the Al Mar Aus-6 knives (factory), and the only good customs I've seen (out of many) were Lile in D-2 and a Colin Cox in 440C... I'd trust a cheap factory knife over most customs (as long as the factory is not Chinese or Taiwanese), no matter what the disparity in price...

Gaston
Click to expand...

Gaston, multiple people have called you out for ruining the edges of knives, and then beating them on hard wood, so I'm not really sure why you continue to act as though your experiences are indicative of...well, anything, really. You are flat out incorrect everything you've ever said about steel on this board. How embarrassing for you.
 
Damn they make some nice knives. Real classics. Seeing blades this nice kind of puts things into perspective.
 
Quiet said:
Gaston, multiple people have called you out for ruining the edges of knives, and then beating them on hard wood, so I'm not really sure why you continue to act as though your experiences are indicative of...well, anything, really. You are flat out incorrect everything you've ever said about steel on this board. How embarrassing for you.
Click to expand...

Multiple makers also!!
I will give him one thing though.....he holds on to these beliefs better than a German Shepherd with a bloody bone.....and for that.......we thank him!!!
Joe
 
marcinek said:
And what does this have to do with Hattori, which is the topic of this thread, or are you just making some general observations about "steel" based on some anecdotal evidence.

And, again, why are they not "fashionable"?
Click to expand...

I mean, your only prior experiance/statement about Hattori was

austexjg said:
Schrade SCHF9 - I thought I could get it sharp, but it is not easy with the shape. Still not happy with the edge.... Someday, maybe it will get sharp.
Click to expand...

Gaston444 said:
That is exactly why I would never buy a recurved edge (with the exception of the Spyderco Civilian, which I never expect to need to sharpen... Or hopefully use). I avoided even a very nice one I coveted, the Seki made Junglee Hattori fighter, or its Katz version... Talk to Razoredgeknives. Maybe they will be able to fix the "inner" geometry...

G.
Click to expand...

...and that was about you not liking recurved edges edges due to your difficulties sharpening them. Do you have any experience with the steel in Hattori knives?

Without that it seems you just jumped in this thread to go on about your general theories about steel. And not really anything to do with Hattori specifically. :confused:
 
Gaston444 said:
What I am saying is that if is factory-made it will likely have better edge-holding than a custom made knife
... I'd trust a cheap factory knife over most customs (as long as the factory is not Chinese or Taiwanese), no matter what the disparity in price...

Gaston
Click to expand...

the whole post is questionable at best, but these claims...sheesh.
 
Lorien said:
the whole post is questionable at best, but these claims...sheesh.
Click to expand...

It's amazing isn't it. What else is just mind boggling is when all CPM steels get lumped together when the stated knowledge of CPM steels is derived from two experiences with S30v and CPM154. :rolleyes:
 
Gaston444 said:
What I am saying is that if is factory-made it will likely have better edge-holding than a custom made knife, and if that factory is in Japan, then it will be better than most other factories, and if on top of that it is stainless, then you really have something...

From the two CPM steels I have tried, and which micro-folded even at thick over 15 dps angles with astonishing ease, I would avoid anything made in CPM steels like the black plague... Yes the micro-folds were very tiny, but they appeared instantly on Maple...
Click to expand...

I strongly suggest you do a little searching on YouTube for some Carothers Performance Knives and SURVIVE! Knives abuse tests/reviews.
If your opinion on CPM steels and custom (or semi-custom) knives does not change after watching a few of these videos, then I promise on my cat's grave I shall never bother to engage in a debate with you again!
 
noob93 said:
so just to be clear here you are stating that people are paying hundreds of dollars for a name more or less?
Click to expand...

No, because if the blade/handle/sheath finish is exceptionally good, crisp and symmetrical, then the "name" has earned some distinction... But edge-holding performance has absolutely nothing to do with price, and probably very little even with the steel designation, except for the rough benchmark that Carbon steels will hold their edge slightly less, since Chrome is such a strong booster of edge holding... Carbons are easier to sharpen, that is no myth, but they do lose more material...

I would say factory or not-factory is the biggest difference in edge holding while chopping (Hattori is factory, high end factory even, Japanese on top of that: In theory pretty much the most desirable stuff there is...):

Out of 6 large factory knives I owned, averaging $500 because of two Randalls (would have averaged $300 otherwise), none of them exhibited any edge problems, even at very thin angles. Of six large custom knives I have owned, averaging $1500 each, four had edge holding problems so severe, even at thick angles, that they were either compromised or completely unuseable in some cases... The two worst customs I ever owned -by far- were both in 440C, indicating this steel is rather finicky in non-factory hands...

Expect good performance from any non Taiwan/Chinese factory knife, premium performance from any Japanese factory knife (but often some of the "tactical" designs have thick edges, that power-tool thinning could easily ruin due to heat -unfortunately), and make sure you check any custom very severely, no matter how expensive it is... Avoid CPM steels and INFI, 440 and D-2 being better choices.

The reason you typically hear that expensive customs hold their edges better than factory knives, which is vapid nonsense, is either that they are used less, or that when they are, they benefit from a very understandable cognitive bias... Nobody likes to see their $2000 super knife blown out of the water by some $40 Walmart special, but given the odds I observed, the $2000 custom is definitely the underdog here...

There is a whole slew of new super steels that I don't cover here, but they are typically not available in big chopping knives. If Cliff's extensive test of M390 against a $1 no-name Chinese kitchen knife is any guide, M390 is hardly distinguishable from the $1 no-name Chinese knife, this while cutting miles of cardboard: That is pretty much what I would expect...

Gaston
 
Gaston444 said:
No, because if the blade/handle/sheath finish is exceptionally good, crisp and symmetrical, then the "name" has earned some distinction... But edge-holding performance has absolutely nothing to do with price, and probably very little even with the steel designation, except for the rough benchmark that Carbon steels will hold their edge slightly less, since Chrome is such a strong booster of edge holding... Carbons are easier to sharpen, that is no myth, but they do lose more material...

Gaston
Click to expand...

Why is it that you choose to ignore the one post that completely negates your stance?
For your convenience, I will quote my own post so you don't have to scroll up to find it.
NJBillK said:
If customs aren't any better than production knives, why are the higher performance knives (shown in link) customs and not production knives?
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...based-on-Edge-Retention-cutting-5-8-quot-rope

Are you trying to say that Jim Ankerson is flat out lying in his findings?
Click to expand...
 
Gaston444 said:
No, because if the blade/handle/sheath finish is exceptionally good, crisp and symmetrical, then the "name" has earned some distinction... But edge-holding performance has absolutely nothing to do with price, and probably very little even with the steel designation, except for the rough benchmark that Carbon steels will hold their edge slightly less, since Chrome is such a strong booster of edge holding... Carbons are easier to sharpen, that is no myth, but they do lose more material...

I would say factory or not-factory is the biggest difference in edge holding while chopping (Hattori is factory, high end factory even, Japanese on top of that: In theory pretty much the most desirable stuff there is...):

Out of 6 large factory knives I owned, averaging $500 because of two Randalls (would have averaged $300 otherwise), none of them exhibited any edge problems, even at very thin angles. Of six large custom knives I have owned, averaging $1500 each, four had edge holding problems so severe, even at thick angles, that they were either compromised or completely unuseable in some cases... The two worst customs I ever owned -by far- were both in 440C, indicating this steel is rather finicky in non-factory hands...

Expect good performance from any non Taiwan/Chinese factory knife, premium performance from any Japanese factory knife (but often some of the "tactical" designs have thick edges, that power-tool thinning could easily ruin due to heat -unfortunately), and make sure you check any custom very severely, no matter how expensive it is... Avoid CPM steels and INFI, 440 and D-2 being better choices.

The reason you typically hear that expensive customs hold their edges better than factory knives, which is vapid nonsense, is either that they are used less, or that when they are, they benefit from a very understandable cognitive bias... Nobody likes to see their $2000 super knife blown out of the water by some $40 Walmart special, but given the odds I observed, the $2000 custom is definitely the underdog here...

There is a whole slew of new super steels that I don't cover here, but they are typically not available in big chopping knives. If Cliff's extensive test of M390 against a $1 no-name Chinese kitchen knife is any guide, M390 is hardly distinguishable from the $1 no-name Chinese knife, this while cutting miles of cardboard: That is pretty much what I would expect...

Gaston
Click to expand...

Well, there you go. Empirical science right there folks!


What a bunch of hogwash. Edge holding comes down to country of manufacture and customs suck. Okay.:rolleyes:
 
Gaston444 said:
No, because if the blade/handle/sheath finish is exceptionally good, crisp and symmetrical, then the "name" has earned some distinction... But edge-holding performance has absolutely nothing to do with price, and probably very little even with the steel designation, except for the rough benchmark that Carbon steels will hold their edge slightly less, since Chrome is such a strong booster of edge holding... Carbons are easier to sharpen, that is no myth, but they do lose more material...

I would say factory or not-factory is the biggest difference in edge holding while chopping (Hattori is factory, high end factory even, Japanese on top of that: In theory pretty much the most desirable stuff there is...):

Out of 6 large factory knives I owned, averaging $500 because of two Randalls (would have averaged $300 otherwise), none of them exhibited any edge problems, even at very thin angles. Of six large custom knives I have owned, averaging $1500 each, four had edge holding problems so severe, even at thick angles, that they were either compromised or completely unuseable in some cases... The two worst customs I ever owned -by far- were both in 440C, indicating this steel is rather finicky in non-factory hands...

Expect good performance from any non Taiwan/Chinese factory knife, premium performance from any Japanese factory knife (but often some of the "tactical" designs have thick edges, that power-tool thinning could easily ruin due to heat -unfortunately), and make sure you check any custom very severely, no matter how expensive it is... Avoid CPM steels and INFI, 440 and D-2 being better choices.

The reason you typically hear that expensive customs hold their edges better than factory knives, which is vapid nonsense, is either that they are used less, or that when they are, they benefit from a very understandable cognitive bias... Nobody likes to see their $2000 super knife blown out of the water by some $40 Walmart special, but given the odds I observed, the $2000 custom is definitely the underdog here...

There is a whole slew of new super steels that I don't cover here, but they are typically not available in big chopping knives. If Cliff's extensive test of M390 against a $1 no-name Chinese kitchen knife is any guide, M390 is hardly distinguishable from the $1 no-name Chinese knife, this while cutting miles of cardboard: That is pretty much what I would expect...

Gaston
Click to expand...

:eek:
 
Gaston444 said:
No, because if the blade/handle/sheath finish is exceptionally good, crisp and symmetrical, then the "name" has earned some distinction... But edge-holding performance has absolutely nothing to do with price, and probably very little even with the steel designation, except for the rough benchmark that Carbon steels will hold their edge slightly less, since Chrome is such a strong booster of edge holding... Carbons are easier to sharpen, that is no myth, but they do lose more material...

I would say factory or not-factory is the biggest difference in edge holding while chopping (Hattori is factory, high end factory even, Japanese on top of that: In theory pretty much the most desirable stuff there is...):

Out of 6 large factory knives I owned, averaging $500 because of two Randalls (would have averaged $300 otherwise), none of them exhibited any edge problems, even at very thin angles. Of six large custom knives I have owned, averaging $1500 each, four had edge holding problems so severe, even at thick angles, that they were either compromised or completely unuseable in some cases... The two worst customs I ever owned -by far- were both in 440C, indicating this steel is rather finicky in non-factory hands...

Expect good performance from any non Taiwan/Chinese factory knife, premium performance from any Japanese factory knife (but often some of the "tactical" designs have thick edges, that power-tool thinning could easily ruin due to heat -unfortunately), and make sure you check any custom very severely, no matter how expensive it is... Avoid CPM steels and INFI, 440 and D-2 being better choices.

The reason you typically hear that expensive customs hold their edges better than factory knives, which is vapid nonsense, is either that they are used less, or that when they are, they benefit from a very understandable cognitive bias... Nobody likes to see their $2000 super knife blown out of the water by some $40 Walmart special, but given the odds I observed, the $2000 custom is definitely the underdog here...

There is a whole slew of new super steels that I don't cover here, but they are typically not available in big chopping knives. If Cliff's extensive test of M390 against a $1 no-name Chinese kitchen knife is any guide, M390 is hardly distinguishable from the $1 no-name Chinese knife, this while cutting miles of cardboard: That is pretty much what I would expect...

Gaston
Click to expand...

What the fudge? Are you actually being serious?
 
I really like Hattori hunting knives! When I look at them, I see beautiful designs and very nice workmanship. I don't consider the steel used a turnoff, but I can see where lots of folks wouldn't shell out a few hundred for them, as many are actually AUS6. For half the price, a guy could pick up a Cold Steel Master Hunter in 3V. I believe that's the kind of thinking that enters the minds of a lot of guys, even if Hattori makes a lot of the Cold steel knives! I can't see any way a steel snob is going to choose a knife in AUS6. Anyway, I'd like to pick up a Hattori.

Joe
 
Last edited:
I just visited Hattori's blades and see a lot of quality steels being used! I still find a few in AUS6 but for under $100. His designs look as great as ever!

joe
 
NJBillK said:
If customs aren't any better than production knives, why are the higher performance knives (shown in link) customs and not production knives?
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...based-on-Edge-Retention-cutting-5-8-quot-rope

Are you trying to say that Jim Ankerson is flat out lying in his findings?
Click to expand...

Sorry but that ranking is pure fantasy... Cliff Stamp has shown time and again that a true comparison test has a large "scatter" in the results, due to a huge variety of factors, including immense variations in the cut material, and that this "scatter" is far larger than anything that would allow anyone to make such a precise slow wear ranking...

The very fact Ankerson would display the results in such a ranking system shows he does not have even the most basic understanding of the statistical issues involved... I'm sure Cliff tried to enlighten him, but I have a feeling it did not go down well...

When challenged about the impact of the cutting board on the edge, Ankerson did not even bother to reply as to what was his method in avoiding board contact, even though you would think that this would be pretty simple to achieve, and a pretty basic variable to elliminate...

My own observations are based on chopping a variety of branches in the field, so even if there are numerous uncontrolled variables, my observations are not about gradual wear, nor are they about a precise ranking: They are a binary observation: Failure or not. Either the edge suffers immediate damage from impact on wood, or it does not, and provided the knife is consistently doing well, that has practical meaning in actual rough use... I don't pretend to make a finely tuned precise ranking, I just make the general observation that custom knives perform far more poorly than factory knives, especially Japanese factory knives, over a large percentage of top custom names... It is very easy to see why that is so: Factory processes are industrial and consistent, while artisanal production is non-industrial and inconsistent... Only a second too much of grinding in one session and the blade is overheated, becoming instantly slightly softer at the edge... In a factory, the minimal grinding required is well established, using jigs if necessary, and making hundreds of blades means the factory worker tends to do each in the most efficient way possible, with the least hesitation...

Now I am not the greatest fan of Cliff Stamp, since his way of arguing out of easy binary observations is to bury their obvious meaningfulness under a cloud of meaningless "science", but for gradual wear at least he understands the problems in arriving at statistically significant conclusions...

Here is where the $1 no name Chinese kitchen knife held its own vs M4 or K390...

https://youtu.be/4tzyA6u1RGE

I'm sure he made it all up...

Gaston
 
Last edited:
Gaston444 said:
Sorry but that ranking is pure fantasy... Cliff Stamp has shown time and again that a true comparison test has a large "scatter" in the results, due to a huge variety of factors, including immense variations in the cut material, and that this "scatter" is far larger than anything that would allow anyone to make such a precise slow wear ranking...

The very fact Ankerson would display the results in such a ranking system shows he does not have even the most basic understanding of the statistical issues involved... I'm sure Cliff tried to enlighten him, but I have a feeling it did not go down well...

When challenged about the impact of the cutting board on the edge, Ankerson did not even bother to reply as to what was his method in avoiding board contact, even though you would think that this would be pretty simple to achieve, and a pretty basic variable to elliminate...

My own observations are based on chopping a variety of branches in the field, so even if there are numerous uncontrolled variables, my observations are not about gradual wear, nor are they about a precise ranking: They are a binary observation: Failure or not. Either the edge suffers immediate damage from impact on wood, or it does not, and provided the knife is consistently doing well, that has practical meaning in actual rough use... I don't pretend to make a finely tuned precise ranking, I just make the general observation that custom knives perform far more poorly than factory knives, especially Japanese factory knives, over a large percentage of top custom names... It is very easy to see why that is so: Factory processes are industrial and consistent, while artisanal production is non-industrial and inconsistent... Only a second too much of grinding in one session and the blade is overheated, becoming instantly slightly softer at the edge... In a factory, the minimal grinding required is well established, using jigs if necessary, and making hundreds of blades means the factory worker tends to do each in the most efficient way possible, with the least hesitation...

Now I am not the greatest fan of Cliff Stamp, since his way of arguing out of easy binary observations is to bury their obvious meaningfulness under a cloud of meaningless "science", but for gradual wear at least he understands the problems in arriving at statistically significant conclusions...

Here is where the $1 no name Chinese kitchen knife held its own vs M4 or K390...

https://youtu.be/4tzyA6u1RGE

I'm sure he made it all up...

Gaston
Click to expand...

He's banned from here. Why would you think using him in your argument carries any weight what-so-ever? I'm not sure you have noticed but no one agrees with you on most of what you say about everything.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top