Have you ever wore out a Military?

ashtxsniper

ashtxsniper

Joined
Oct 28, 2006
Messages
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I have a few Militaries and I have had a few people tell me they only hold up to everyday use for a few years before the liner lock is wore out. How long and how hard have you used your Military and what is the condition of the lock? Has anyone wore out the lock on their Military? Thanks guys I am trying to figure out the expected life of my Military.
 
I got an old 440V in a trade, it was in great shape, and the previous user had used it. Had a black Military that I used EDC for a good long time, no problems. My current Military is an older version S30V model, Military stamped on blade, and is a great user.
 
I have a S30V model that has been my EDC work knife for around six months now. Going strong with no discernible wear.
 
I look forward to seeing the responses to this thread. I don't have a Military (just too big for me), but I bet that if folks are honest we will find that very few have to be retired because of a worn lock problem.

:)
 
I think the fuss is overblown, for two reasons. The first warnings about liner locks focused on their tendency to slip under torque. This made them a possible risk as a self-defense tool (stabbing then twisting?). But like any metal-on-metal, they will also wear, and this got added to the worries.

But most of us don't use any one folder for steady, heavy duty. We aren't going to wear one out before rotating another, or switching off for specialized work. And how many of us have ever timed and measured the cumulative stress on an EDC, for possible future posting on a thread like this? :)

The Millie has had a rep as a workhorse for a long time. I think if there was a significant flaw, it would have been widely discussed by now. On the other hand, I can think of few folders that I could use in so many different ways -- in the woods, as a camp knife, as a kitchen knife, as a carving knife, as a filet knife. The only other folders I've got that I can rely on in this way, of feeling I always have enough knife when I''m carrying one of them, are my CUDA Maxx and my large Sebenzas.
 
i paid $150 for my military, the lock better not wear out lol.....


but yeah, i carry my military only for self defense, so i dont use on it anything, just carry it on me when im in a high risk area of town at some odd hour, so i guess wearing it out isnt really even a problem for me. its not like im opening it all day long.
 
I'd like to hear from these "few people", see their knives and consider their stories. Otherwise, it just sounds like internet talk where people voice opinions on things they know nothing about.

-Not at all a shot at you ashtxsniper :), but who told you this? -I say make 'em speak up and then we'll have something to talk about.

As for me, my plainedge is seven years old, daily carry for nearly all of that. My serrated edge is about five years of frequent/daily carry. I've had no issues, they're as solid as the first day I clipped 'em on. :thumbup:
 
tortoise said:
-Not at all a shot at you ashtxsniper :), but who told you this? -I say make 'em speak up and then we'll have something to talk about.
Click to expand...

I'm one of them.

I’ve gone over the whole liner lock unreliability thing once before on the Spyderco forum.
The deal is basically this. Due to common opinion and the cumulative experience of many knife users on this forum, I have formed the opinion that liner locks are, on the whole, not to be trusted.
On top of being less reliable than most other lock types, they wear out much faster as well. It’s a matter of design really. They have a small contact area that is made to wear a little bit every time it is used. On something like the BB lock or Axis lock, that wear is distributed around the diameter of the locking ball/bar, and takes a long time to wear down to the point that it fails to function.
I won't make any outright statements of fact this time, but I’m pretty sure that a liner lock will wear out long before other (better) locks will.
 
I have wore out a couple of liner locks, a Military is not one of them.
I have seen a lot of worn out liner locks, a Military is not of those either.

The military is an exteremly well built and well thought out liner lock, but it still has all the design flaws of a liner lock - high friction between the lock surface and the tang when opening\closing the knife and when stressing the lock - but they won't be as noticable.

Most users don't use the knife long, often and hard enough to wear it out after 5 years so it's really not a problem.
Can the Military be a safe and reliable EDC for 10+ years? absoluely, no questions asked. Will it last as long as a lock back doing the same things? probably not.

Basically, those of us not planning to be stranded on an island with just 1 knife for 20 years, don't really have to worry :D
 
Joshua J. said:
I'm one of them.
Click to expand...

Okay, I did a search over a Spyderco. What I found is you stating (in so many words) that you don't trust liner locks though you have no hard evidence, just what you've heard on the internet. -Which is precisely what I said and precisely the point I was making.

Naturally, you are perfectly entitled to whatever preference you choose. But to argue that a design is unreliable based on feeling that way doesn't make it so. Feelings, based on other people's feelings posted on the internet, are even less technically significant. And to pass these feelings on as facts to someone who is seeking information, well...

Statistical data demonstrating the unreliability of the Military's lock would make such a case. Of course, no such data exists, quite the contrary in fact, because the Military's lock design is extremely reliable.

Over there you cited a report of a Military which failed the "spine whack" test. I accept that this is, to you, to your "feelings" significant. I even had one myself once (a bad Military, not a feeling ;)) bought from Sal himself at the NYC Knife show.

Any particular Military that fails that test is out of spec. It is not functioning properly and is in need of repair, the same way any machine that fails to operate as designed would be.

I've owned a couple of (non-Spyderco) lockbacks that failed. You could easily search up lockback failures here on BFC and elsewhere, "pocket lint" is a good key to use.

But the fact that a lockback I own fails, or if you find ten lint-threads, means precisely nothing about lockback reliability in general, other than that it's preferable to keep them lint-free. ;)
 
Good points and good discussion.

I think that it is important to "peel the onion" in making these determinations. Also one must include "time" and refinement" in analysis.

Any lock can fail. If you didn't hear it. Any lock can fail. :p

Locks are bits of metal cut to very close tolerances and carefully balanced heat treats. The interface area is ciritical.

Failure can occur from error, out of spec, wear (time), dirt affecting the interface, excess force, which bends or coins the interface, etc.

Locks require maintenance, attention, occasional light spine tap to check. In case you didn't hear that, light is the key word. I see many locks that have seen "death by spine-wack". Expectations are often too high in this area, in my opinion. If a light tap defeats the lock, then inspection, cleaning, etc can save the lock. Each time it defeats, it "breaks" a tiny bit more. Continual spine whacking without making a change and expecting a change is not logical. It also ruins the lock.

With that in mind.

Each lock mechanism has advantages and disadvantages. Manufactures continually refine to reduce disadvantages. Eg: We're on our 3rd lock material on our Military in 10 years. As manufacturers learn more, they improve. (time again).

The Walker linerlock has some very nice advantages; easy one hand open and close, smooth action, easy to overcome closing force for easy opening, takes up little space affording far more flexibility in design. Simplicity of concept.

disadvantages; it's difficult to make reliablle. Much attention needs to be paid to the materials and hardness of the blade material (tang) and lock interface. (This is also true of lock-backs, Axis-locks, compression-locks, E-Locks, Reeve-Integral-Locks, ball-bearing-locks, etc).

On the Military we've contually refined this area. We use an offset concave arc ramp for greater reliability. We precisely control angles and hardness of the interface materials. We've gone to dual nested liners (very close tolerance) with focus on greater ridgidity. We could go to a LAWKS like CRKT and we' ve considered it, but at this time, we would prefer to evolve the Walker Linerlock to improve reliability without the addtional parts.

Does this make it perfect? Of course not. Any lock can fail.

But with the constantly improved materials, tolerances, hardness balance, they get better and better.

This is, IMO, true of any lock.

sal
 
tortoise said:
Over there you cited a report of a Military which failed the "spine whack" test. I accept that this is, to you, to your "feelings" significant. I even had one myself once (a bad Military, not a feeling ;)) bought from Sal himself at the NYC Knife show.
Click to expand...

I’m not going off feelings, I’m going off user reports.
I did some searches on Google for liner lock failure. I got these.

Had my first liner lock failure yesterday
http://www.selfdefenseforums.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-3443.html
liner lock failure
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254327
Knife lock question (specifically note post #18)
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=154193
Locks...
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-288490.html
CRKT M-16Z liner lock failed.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-456852.html

I did the same search for Compression lock, and got nothing.

Then for the Axis lock.

Axis lock failed?
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-303582.html
Has an axis lock failed on anyone?
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=386732
Benchmade / Ritter Mini Grip Review
http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/796632/
Axis Lock vs. Frame Lock
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-270628.html
Axis lock failure...
http://www.selfdefenseforums.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-9488.html

Liner and Frame Lock Reliability?
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=478043

After skimming through them the approximate number of reported locks failed in these threads are…

Compression lock - 0
Axis lock - 8
Back lock - 4
Frame lock - 6
Liner lock - 36
And one liner lock that wouldn’t engage to begin with.
(Several slip joints also folded under pressure.)

Don’t you think that’s just a little bit lop sided?

I read warnings from other people about liner locks. Warnings that say you should be extra careful with them. I am passing those warnings down to you.
You have been warned.
 
After reading through the links you've posted as "evidence" this is what I found:

"Now, on the other side of this coin, I have two Spyderco Military's with almost scary thin liner locks that are surprisingly tough and reliable. I still marvel at them as they are strong beyond their initial appearance. Neither has ever shown the slightest inclination to fail. They are the top of the list of a very small number of liner locks I'd trust my life to in a pinch."

Right.

"Liner lock failure" threads would be anecdotal anyway, and quite irrelevant in terms of statiscal merit. They're full of exactly what you're doing here, "I feel that this is bad, but I can't back that up." -But what you list has little to do with the Military anyway. Except a note about lefty-unfriendliness, one about prying, and the quote above.

You go on to list "threads on the internet" citing failures by lock type and the corresponding numbers. This is scientific data? Okay, let's examine it.

The liner lock has been made, in some form, for over 100 years; the Walker design for about twenty five, the Spyderco Military for ten or more. The Compression lock has been around for about five years, maybe seven? The Compression lock is a proprietary design, and only available, since its inception, in a handful of knives. Same for the Axis.

Walker's design is used from hugely expensive customs to Canal Street specials, probably constituting thousands of models and millions of knives. Some are well designed and executed, many are not. That doesn't quite come through in your "presentation" though, does it? Don't you think that's a little lopsided when someone asks about the Spyderco Military?

You have been corrected.
 
I just wish people would not smack talk stuff they have zero "real world" experience with. Lets hear your Military liner lock failure! And what do all the other brands have to do with the Military liner lock reliability?

This thread is about the Spyderco Military............;)

Yes, All liner locks are not created equal.


My Mili as seen alot of use, and has been flicked open most of the time, and the liner set here after the first week of use and is still there now. 1000s of flicks later......................I bet in ten years it will move over a little more, but will still be just as strong as it is now.

mili-lockup.jpg

I guess Ignorance is Bliss. :D
 
To apply this to the Military. No, I have not seen high numbers of reports of unreliable locks on the Military. Yes, the Military has one of the best examples of the liner lock you can possibly get. If it didn’t we would be hearing more about failed locks, as people on this thread have pointed out.
However, even Spyderco won’t get it right every time. By virtue of it being a liner lock, you are more likely to get a defective one when compared to other locks produced by Spyderco.

The lock on the Military is good, but it’s not as good as others.

On the point of longevity.
I have spine whacked the heck out of my Chinook III. Yes I got it to unlock a few times, but for the most part the lock still works normally. I even did some repair work and the lock is tighter now than it was new. If I did the same thing with my Military (heaven forbid) I would have to retire the knife as it would now be a slip-joint.
I’m not saying that heavy spine whacking is something that will happen to every knife that people use, but over time wear does happen. I’ve seen what accelerated wear does to a (very) sturdy lock back. On the other hand just ask STR what accelerated wear does to a liner lock. It’s common knowledge that they don’t take it too well.
Your liner lock will wear out faster than most other locks. How fast that is depends on how you use it. In the end I still think it is good advice that you be extra careful with a knife that uses a liner lock. Even the Spyderco Military.
 
Joshua J. said:
I have spine whacked the heck out of my Chinook III. Yes I got it to unlock a few times, but for the most part the lock still works normally.
Click to expand...

Why?....................................:confused:

I cut with the sharp part of the knife, do you cut with the spine? Spine whacking is not a part of normal knife use. :confused:
 
To see that it could take it I guess. There were reports of snappy whacks unlocking the blade, this is what I found to be true (a few times anyway). I also mistakenly thought that the Chinook should be able to withstand heavy impacts against the lock normally. It does to a certain extent. Though it causes heavy wear on the lock, as should be expected. My Chinook has probably seen more wear than it would have in a lifetime of normal use.
It’s nice to know that if you’re cutting something and if for some reason you smack the back of the blade on something hard the knife won’t fold in.
Or that the knife can be used to dig a hole in a two by four if need be. Why would I want to dig a hole in a 2x4? I have no idea, but stranger things have happened.
I carry the Chinook III to do all the things that I don’t expect or want smaller knives to do. It serves that purpose quite nicely.
 
I have had 6-7 Militarys. Two have had lots of blade play due to liner lock slipping. I have one now that moves. It is not worn, it just slips a bit. I have not been able to make it fail but it is scary to see the lock slip so much.

I doubt many of the Militarys wear out but I wouldn't be surprised to find that some have locks that slip like mine. If I have only owned 6 or 7 of them and two have had lots of verticle blade play do to slipping lock, the problem must exist.

On the ones that don't slip, they seem as solid as anything out there and I trust them. Just being honest here. I think Spyderco liner locks are some of the better liner locks in the industry BTW.

I think Spyderco in general has has a lot of issues with their locks though. The compression locks and the back locks seem to have a huge percentage of knives with more than acceptable blade play in my opinion.

I have decided that the compression lock is not for me and I won't buy a knife with this type of lock. It is a loser design that I feel is being forced down our throats by Spyderco. The BB lock with "wings" is probably the future so start making more models available with that lock system please.
 
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