Having some pre-shave issues - UPDATE 7/15

[fast14riot]

Been DE shaving for a while, technique is solid, component selection has been refined but I am having an issue only sometimes with my pre-shave.

When I need to shave the next day or even two days later, I just can't seem to get my beard to soften up like I can after 3-4 days growth. My routine is fill sink and soak brush/bowl while I shower. Conditioner on my beard and hair, rinse, thoroughly soak my face, get out of shower and not dry off. Make lather, then towel soak face with wet towel hot as I can stand for 1 minute then immediately lather face and start my typical 3 pass shave.

I do get a bit of irritation when shaving the day after a shave, but like I said if I wait longer I don't get any irritation at all. So, what could I do to help soften my beard more when the stubble is short?

Gillette British Super Speed
Feather or Astra platinum blades
C.O. Bigelow menthol cream
Bowl lather with badger brush
Wtg - xtg - xtg (opposite direction) then buff problem areas if needed.
I have a tough beard and very sensitive skin.


-Xander

 

[gadgetgeek]

Two things that I can think of,
1. you may be over-doing to prep, its possible that you are softening the skin too much, causing more irritation than your skin likes. you could try to back off a bit on the hot towel, and see if that makes a difference,
Alternately, you could be causing more irritation on the third pass than you think you are. Might be worth dropping the last pass, just to see if that helps out on the next day shave. I think you are getting less irritation simply because the skin is getting more time to heal on the longer rest periods. For myself, I can be much less careful if I'm taking a day in between shaves, but if I go everyday, the bits of irritation start to add up as they don't get time to heal.
I've found that skin irritation is fixed better by worrying about the skin itself, more than the beard. beard prep is all about comfort during the shave.
Hope that helps

 

[hettingerjm]

The same thing happens to me if I'm not really careful when shaving two days in a row. I use the feather blades which give a great shave but their extremely close and you have to be extra careful.

Things I do that help me:

**Try a pre-shave oil before each lather.

1. Use a less intense blade the second day in a row.

2. Make sure your not pushing the blade at all! Just letting it slide.

3. Really study the direction your beard hair grows, and completely follow it when shaving. For example, my neck hair has 3 different growth directions. I shave the far left and right sideways. I shave next to that going up. But right in the middle I have to shave down.
This made a HUGE difference for me.

 

[hettingerjm]

Also I see your doing an opposite direction shave... Many people recommend this. But I've also read several tutorials where this is highly discouraged when I was first starting.

You should be getting close enough in 2 shaves with the grain and not need the third. The reason is going the opposite direction can cause ingrown hairs and usually this is where a lot of irritation comes from.

Im kind of curious if you are needing 3 shaves how many times do you reuse your blades?

I have sensitive skin and thick beard also so I never use the same edge more than 1 day.

 

[unky_gumbi]

How long do you wait after you lather before you start shaving? I have a tough beard and sensitive skin as well, and I don't do half of what you do in your pre-shave. I do however let the lather sit on my face for a good 1-2 minutes before I start shaving. I never found that the hot towel did anything for me, same thing with conditioner while in the shower.

I just take a hot shower and let the hot water run over my face before getting out. Then I dry off, leaving my face wet, mix up my lather, re-wet my face and apply the lather. After that there are a few things I can do while I let the lather sit, pick a razor to use, change out the blade, anything real just to give the lather time to set in.

 

[lwt210]

I shave daily and sometimes twice a day if I need to be stubble free at night.

Three drops of Shave Secret applied to my face/neck prior to EACH lather/pass keeps me irritation free and softens the short whiskers with ease. First couple of passes are with the grain and then I follow up with ATG and cold water rinses.

I have found that if I skip the Shave Secret, I get some RB and irritation.

I have to shave daily and have sensitive skin and a wiry beard and the Shave Secret seems to work well for me. Today's shave was a four pass shave and I felt no sting whatsoever when I applied my aftershave. 59 Fatboy set on 7 with a fresh Feather blade, VDH luxury unscented soap mixed with Bigelow cream for a nice superlather.

The Shave Secret is easily found at Walmart and like stores for less than four bucks.

 

[fast14riot]

Thanx for the tips guys, I'll try to adress some points in your posts...

The reason for the conditioner is I take cold showers year-round and don't use face wash, I need something to help soften the beard a bit other than just water absorbsion, also the reason for the hot towel.

I've been lucky to have good, but sensitive skin my whole life. I have tried many different options and am looking to refine the last bit of my process. When the stubble is short is just doesn't cut near as easily, wheather the blade is new or not, so that's seems to be my main concern, but anything else couldn't hurt.

I have yet to try any specific pre-shave oils, but have tried the EVOO and almond oil with mixed results. I usually try something for 30 days to give time for the change to be complete and thorough.

I generally don't go Against the grain due to irritation, but the final cross grain pass is just to clean up what was missed and not over every part of my face. I typically use an edge twice, maybe 3 times tops. I buy blades in bulk, so I don't care about longevity.

George, you bring up a good point, I don't really leave the lather on my face more than 20 seconds before starting my shave, I'll try that first before trying new products. Again, the hot towel is mainly to open my pores and hydrate my skin.

I'll pick up some shave secret and give that a try as well, if it doesn't help the wife can use it.

I also forgot to mention, I wipe my face off with a wet towel between lathering, follow up with cold water when done, then a RazoRock Allum stick on my neck and Nivea Sensitive Skin ASB. Almost always a BBS. Rarely do I ever get more than a weeper unless I got a (rare for me) small pimple or something.


-Xander

 

[gadgetgeek]

Wow, you've got things really well thought out! I see now why you've set your self up the way you have, and it makes sense. Kudos on doing things for 30 days at a time, at least you know that its not a one off event if something goes wrong. I hope you can figure something out, and let us know so we can learn from it too.

 

[lwt210]

I have yet to try any specific pre-shave oils, but have tried the EVOO and almond oil with mixed results. I usually try something for 30 days to give time for the change to be complete and thorough.



-Xander

I have tried some pre shave oils and found them to be too thick. Shave Secret is quite a bit thinner than Art of Shaving pre oil and the like.

It goes well with my lather of the day. Today's was a four pass shave with VDH luxury scented and a Fatboy dialed up to 7 loaded with a day old Feather.

 

[fast14riot]

Wow, you've got things really well thought out! I see now why you've set your self up the way you have, and it makes sense. Kudos on doing things for 30 days at a time, at least you know that its not a one off event if something goes wrong. I hope you can figure something out, and let us know so we can learn from it too.

Yeah, it has been a long and burning road to get to the point of enjoying a shave! Ever since I had to start shaving at 14 I have been plagued with razor burn. I tried everything, the most expensive, gadgety, gimmik that Gillette or Schick said every man needed and had never experianced before. 2 blades, 3 blades, 4,5,6! Vibrating handles, cans of acrid smelling goo, lighter fluid like AS, baby powder scented womens choices, anything must help! Then my mother got me a nice badger bush, and I discovered wet shaving with inspiring results. Took almost a year to settle into a routine and narrow down my component selection. I'm pretty happy with it now, but hopefully you guys can help me get that last bit of bliss into my routine!

I have tried some pre shave oils and found them to be too thick. Shave Secret is quite a bit thinner than Art of Shaving pre oil and the like.

It goes well with my lather of the day. Today's was a four pass shave with VDH luxury scented and a Fatboy dialed up to 7 loaded with a day old Feather.

Thanx for that tip. I usually order from WCS, and have looked at a few of their offerings but have always wondered if I should just blindly pick something. At least with buying something local I can take it back easily.

I tried VdH soaps and just couldn't get the performance I wanted. Always had to add Glycerine to be even remotely comfortable, plus my city water is pretty hard. The Col.Conk Almond was as close as I could get with bargain priced soaps. The C.O. Bigelow seems to work real well for me. Great scent, lasts forever, and now my wife even asks me to whip up some lather for her occasionally to shave and asks me to apply it! . Still can't get her to use a DE though, but I did (very nervously!) let her make a couple passes on my face!


I had a great 3 pass shave with the exact routine I posted above, but I did allow the lather to sit on my face longer, still up in the air about it at this point. I'll report back tomorrow.


-Xander

 

[fast14riot]

Well today I think I figured out a plan to eliminate my day to day shave woes. I will stick with this new step in my routine for 30 days to make sure it is what I need. I did some flow chart type thinking about my issues with the pre shave prep. Gumbi's solution seemed logical and was tried, but I can usually tell the first time if something is worth continuing for 30 days of testing, and just letting the lather sit before shave didn't quite do enough. But it showed promise. I thought about it a little more, did some readng on B&B, and came up with a solution that seemed to work beautifully!

Todays shave: make lather a little dry then get in the shower and eliminate the conditioner on my face. I use the lather to condition my beard and skin for several minutes in the shower, hence the dry lather. Wash and rinse, rinse face right before exiting the shower. Don't dry off, make lather again, and wet face with hot towel, not a 1 minute soak. Apply lather and let sit for 20 seconds or so while loading razor, putting on deodorant, swabbing ears, etc. and begin shave as normal. On first pass there was a noticeable difference! It was smooth, cut nicely, and my skin didn't feel unprotected. I finished off with a 3 pass shave, some buffing and a splash of cold water. An exceptional BBS shave, with out the fire!

Gillette British SS
Astra Platinum 1 day old
RazoRock classic cream
Badger brush and bowl lather
Wtg-xtg-xtg
RazoRock allum stick
Nivea Sensitive Skin ASB
Versaće eau fraich cologne

-Xander

 

[unky_gumbi]

Wet shaving is a personal thing and it can take a bit of time to find out just what works for you. I am glad that you are starting to find your groove and eliminating the irritation

 

[fast14riot]

Yeah, its nice. Not like the problem was sever or constant, just trying to refine the last very bit of my routine to eliminate it all together. I hope this solves my issue for good! Next up is I would like to add an adjustable razor to the mix, preferaly vintage. I'm not into collecting razors really, I have just two SS, gave away my merkur 23C, and figured out that creams work better for me than soaps. So other than a razor I guess a second brush would be next.

Thanx for the tips

-Xander

 

[unky_gumbi]

You know I started with a EJ89L, was given a Flare Tip Rocket, then bought an old Tech and well used Aristocrat. Then things started to get out of hand I try to keep my collection down to 20 or less razors. When I feel the need to get something else I have to give away some of what I have. Having to give them away keeps me from buying more

 

[Magnaminous_G]

Been DE shaving for a while, technique is solid, component selection has been refined

but I am having an issue only sometimes with my pre-shave.

First of all, if you are having issues with the results of wet-shaving, never assume that you know what the cause is. It could be any number of things. First identify what the issue is and then what the possible cause is.

I do get a bit of irritation when shaving the day after a shave, but like I said if I wait longer I don't get any irritation at all.

Aha... that's the issue. How do you know if the cause is your pre-shave? Irritation could be caused by bad lather, an overly-dull blade, any number of technique problems (shaving at too deep an angle on the ATG pass, using too much pressure, passing over the same area too many times, etc., etc.), sensitivity to a product, etc., etc.

Also, everybody has a "tough beard and sensitive skin." That's a psychological thing.

When I need to shave the next day or even two days later, I just can't seem to get my beard to soften up like I can after 3-4 days growth.

This is indeed abnormal. This is what we need to focus on. Before even going into the pre-prep, you need to figure out:

1. Are you building a good lather? If you can take a hi-rez pic of your lather on your brush (and tell us what the soap/cream is), that would help. Poorly built lather that dries out or is bubbly/foamy won't cushion your face properly. Good lather is built with a lot of product, the correct amount of water, and a lot of whipping and incorporating. When the lather is slick and "wet" looking with no visible bubbles at all and peaking like meringue, that's when you've got a proper lather. A proper lather retains moisture and doesn't dry out. It cushions the blade and should be left on the beard for a full 1-2 minutes before you start shaving. It should stay slick on the beard throughout the pass.

2. Are you using the correct pressure/angle? Shaving is like sharpening a knife. It's all about pressure and angle. Are you keeping the blade around 30 degrees to your face? Here's a pic of what that looks like. Yes, I made the pic (for the B&B shaving forum).

Are you using a feather-light touch, especially on the ATG pass? Are you dialing the razor down low for that final pass?

3. Now, on to beard-prep. It sounds like you are so focused on the beard-prep (you seem to be assuming that is the issue), that you are overdoing it. From what you describe, your face must be red and raw after your "preparation." No matter how tough your beard, there's no need for all that. After a shower, all you really need to do is keep warm water splashed on your face while you build your lather and prepare your razor/blade.


I would guess the problem is OVER-prepping your beard, not building good lather, and improper technique during the shave... any combination of those three... or maybe all three.

 

[gunfixrjoe]

Yeah, its nice. Not like the problem was sever or constant, just trying to refine the last very bit of my routine to eliminate it all together. I hope this solves my issue for good! Next up is I would like to add an adjustable razor to the mix, preferaly vintage. I'm not into collecting razors really, I have just two SS, gave away my merkur 23C, and figured out that creams work better for me than soaps. So other than a razor I guess a second brush would be next.

Thanx for the tips

-Xander

and that Merkur 23C is getting lots of good use!!! Thanks again Xander.

 

[fast14riot]

and that Merkur 23C is getting lots of good use!!! Thanks again Xander.

Hey Joe, glad to hear that! It is a great razor, just didn't fit my needs.


-Xander

 

[Will Power]

I wash my face with bar soap which is mild, I'd be suspicious of conditioner this may well cause irritation, before shaving. Keep the face wet as you say and apply the lather. This seems to be useful.

I very seldom shave every day, every other gives the razor a good carpet of bristle to cut through. Less trauma to the skin's surface.

Here in Finland, we have saunas everywhere. Having a sauna before shaving is THE best pre shave prep. It opens the pores, removes the dirt and really softens up the stubble. But, I realize this is not an option for many people.

 

[fast14riot]

Thanx MagG for the reply, I'll address everything in your quote.

First of all, if you are having issues with the results of wet-shaving, never assume that you know what the cause is. It could be any number of things. First identify what the issue is and then what the possible cause is.

This is absolutely correct.


Aha... that's the issue. How do you know if the cause is your pre-shave? Irritation could be caused by bad lather, an overly-dull blade, any number of technique problems (shaving at too deep an angle on the ATG pass, using too much pressure, passing over the same area too many times, etc., etc.), sensitivity to a product, etc., etc.

Also, everybody has a "tough beard and sensitive skin." That's a psychological thing.

Yes, the issue is the irritation that will show up immediately after a shave. My technique is pretty solid, I am actually pretty methodical in my routines, going over my mental checklist everytime I shave. I almost never use an Against the grain pass.

My beard is dense with a coarse texture, even when I grow it out. Also my skin does react to mild irritations much more than others, I got a small break out just from cooking bacon, not even eating it!


This is indeed abnormal. This is what we need to focus on. Before even going into the pre-prep, you need to figure out:

1. Are you building a good lather? If you can take a hi-rez pic of your lather on your brush (and tell us what the soap/cream is), that would help. Poorly built lather that dries out or is bubbly/foamy won't cushion your face properly. Good lather is built with a lot of product, the correct amount of water, and a lot of whipping and incorporating. When the lather is slick and "wet" looking with no visible bubbles at all and peaking like meringue, that's when you've got a proper lather. A proper lather retains moisture and doesn't dry out. It cushions the blade and should be left on the beard for a full 1-2 minutes before you start shaving. It should stay slick on the beard throughout the pass.

I alway make sure that my lather is up to par with the description you provide, dumping and starting over if needed. I'm at work now but I will try to post pics when I can. I bowl lather with primarily C.O. Bigelow from Bath & Body Works in the mall, but occasionally use RazoRock Classic Cream.

I learned first hand what bad lather feels like when I started. Blade and razor head dragging and hopping across my skin, drying out before first pass is done, etc.

2. Are you using the correct pressure/angle? Shaving is like sharpening a knife. It's all about pressure and angle. Are you keeping the blade around 30 degrees to your face? Here's a pic of what that looks like. Yes, I made the pic (for the B&B shaving forum).

Are you using a feather-light touch, especially on the ATG pass? Are you dialing the razor down low for that final pass?

that's a handy little diagram! I used the method of putting the head at 0* against my face and slowly rocking it down just untill I saw/felt the blade touch my skin, which works out to very close to 30*. The only pressure is from the weight of the razor typically, not even enough to deform my skin. I also make sure not to over stretch my skin, like my neck and jaw line.

3. Now, on to beard-prep. It sounds like you are so focused on the beard-prep (you seem to be assuming that is the issue), that you are overdoing it. From what you describe, your face must be red and raw after your "preparation." No matter how tough your beard, there's no need for all that. After a shower, all you really need to do is keep warm water splashed on your face while you build your lather and prepare your razor/blade.

it is possible that I am over doing it, but like I have mentioned before, less prep meant worse results. My face is never red before a shave, I take cold showers and don't use astringent cleaners. I rarely even wash my face with more than just water and a wash cloth. That was the reason for the hot towel before building lather, to open my pores and I know that warmer water is absorbed by the hair shaft better than colder. As I stated in a previous post, making lather to sit on my face during the last few minutes of my shower has helped, I could do this after the shower, but its easier for me during.

I would guess the problem is OVER-prepping your beard, not building good lather, and improper technique during the shave... any combination of those three... or maybe all three.
I really apreciate your knowledge and help, and look forward to your help in finding success for me during my shave! If you have any other specific questions about my routine, please ask.

-Xander

 

[gunfixrjoe]

Xander....Just my 2 cents. I have been using Shave Secret, 2drops, with great success.

Preheat bowl, with Conk almond soap inside, Shave Secret bottle, boar brush, and razor(either my Merkur 23C or my Jagger) with Feather blade, in sink with hot water
Shower and wash face with Proactive face wash, cuz I gots some oily freakin skin! Cold shower too, cuz its stupid hot here this time of year and I work outside
Remove items from sink, and wet face with hot sink water
Leave face wet and apply two drops of Shave Secret oil
Allow that to work skin while prepping lather
Lather up and count to 100
Shave with a little buffing in problem areas, shaving almost exclusively ATG
Rinse with cold water
Apply witch hazel
While that dries, rinse and clean razor, brush, and bowel and clean up the mess I inevitably make
Apply Nivea balm or Clubman aftershave, whichever I feel like for the day


I have little to no irritation or weepers with this method. I have very sensitive skin!!!
If I do everything exactly the same but leave out the Shave Secret, or apply more than 2 drops, I get weepers all over and lots of irritation.