Heads up! Maine Pattern Axe In Progress... Making The High Carbon Overcoat Bit

OK, this morning was all about welding the mild steel shut and then welding the high carbon overcoat. I'm afraid I don't have many pictures, but these should give an overview of the process. The weld line is straight and sturdy which I'm pleased about as it's the first time I've tried the overcoat weld.

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You can see that the eye still needs further straightening out, and the final shape needs to be tuned up. After that it'll be time to heat treat, temper and polish! :)
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Awesome! So in order to get enough material for a poll did you start with something already thick, or something else? I'm relying on scrap to get metal, but that doesn't lend itself to making .... anything really. :P Sometimes I think maybe the thing to do would be to fold steel until I get the right thickness, but sometimes I think it would be better to just start with something thick and thin it down. Either way, I suppose there will be a lot of hammering. We did get a hole punched in a small block of steel for my first project - some kind of hammer. I'm thinking that taking on a tomahawk would be a good first step toward an axe ... though I still want a poll of some kind.
 
Hey COTS,

I start out with inch thick stock in order to get the poll I want. This is hard work to move without a power hammer -- I swing a 4lb sledge to get this slab moving the way I want it.

There are other ways to get a poll. You can punch and drift, which is easier in some ways, especially if you have a press. But if you're forging by hand there's really no easy way to get a decent poll -- it's going to be hard work whatever, cos at some point you're going to be arguing with 1+ inch thick steel.

Do you have any scrap leaf springs or files? If so, you could really make a nice hawk or belt axe. A poll isn't of great important on a hatchet or hawk.

This example has an 80crv2 steel bit, but I am going to experiment with some German K510 steel which is as close to the 'silver steel' that so many of the premium axe makers claimed to use for their bits.
 
Chignecto Woodsman said:
What is the mild steel you use and how well does it weld to the 80CRV2? I heard this is one of the issues with 5160, it can be difficult to forge weld, but my knowledge of forging is less than beginner.

Also, do you know what steels were used by Emerson & Stevens and how these new steels compare?
Click to expand...

Sorry, I've only just seen this. Firstly, the mild steel is 43A, which is roughly similar to 1020. It sticks just fine with 80CRV2. It's a little more finicky because of the higher carbon and chrome, but not a big deal.

As for how it compares to the steels used by Emerson Stevens, that's a really good question which raises some very interesting ideas. From what we know, old time axe makers used a high carbon steel for the bit with carbon levels up around 1%. Steve Tall posted the steel compositions used by several old makers in a thread a little while back. And we also know that several of the premium makers -- including several in Maine -- advertised using 'silver steel' at one point or another. I think I saw an old Emerson Stevens sticker claiming to use silver steel.

Silver steel is a European steel similar to 52100. I believe it is the steel which William Scagel imported for his custom knives way back when. English silver steel has the following composition:

Typical Analysis (%)
C 1.13
Si .22
Mn .37
Cr .43

German silver steel also includes a little Vanadium, but is otherwise the same. Both variants are very fine grained steels with high edge holding and strong --but not super-hero -- toughness. It's been used for a hundred years for things like drill bits and razor blades. In fact, Wilkinson Sword used it at one time for their British officer's swords.

The interesting thing is this. The current orthodoxy is that for axes and chopper knives, the edge ought to be nearer 0.6% carbon. In other words they should be hypoeutectoid steels. We believe that tools which come under shock loads should use what are essentially spring steels. But it strikes me as interesting that when we actually made axes for a thriving timber trade and swords that were actually still used in battle, it was considered that higher carbon (about 1% carbon) steels were used by all premium makers. Perhaps, when these tools were actually used there was a greater emphasis on high performance and skill in use rather than mere indestructibility.

Anyway, sorry, I've become boring again!
 
joshiecole said:
Sorry, I've only just seen this. Firstly, the mild steel is 43A, which is roughly similar to 1020. It sticks just fine with 80CRV2. It's a little more finicky because of the higher carbon and chrome, but not a big deal.

As for how it compares to the steels used by Emerson Stevens, that's a really good question which raises some very interesting ideas. From what we know, old time axe makers used a high carbon steel for the bit with carbon levels up around 1%. Steve Tall posted the steel compositions used by several old makers in a thread a little while back. And we also know that several of the premium makers -- including several in Maine -- advertised using 'silver steel' at one point or another. I think I saw an old Emerson Stevens sticker claiming to use silver steel.

Silver steel is a European steel similar to 52100. I believe it is the steel which William Scagel imported for his custom knives way back when. English silver steel has the following composition:

Typical Analysis (%)
C 1.13
Si .22
Mn .37
Cr .43

German silver steel also includes a little Vanadium, but is otherwise the same. Both variants are very fine grained steels with high edge holding and strong --but not super-hero -- toughness. It's been used for a hundred years for things like drill bits and razor blades. In fact, Wilkinson Sword used it at one time for their British officer's swords.

The interesting thing is this. The current orthodoxy is that for axes and chopper knives, the edge ought to be nearer 0.6% carbon. In other words they should be hypoeutectoid steels. We believe that tools which come under shock loads should use what are essentially spring steels. But it strikes me as interesting that when we actually made axes for a thriving timber trade and swords that were actually still used in battle, it was considered that higher carbon (about 1% carbon) steels were used by all premium makers. Perhaps, when these tools were actually used there was a greater emphasis on high performance and skill in use rather than mere indestructibility.

Anyway, sorry, I've become boring again!
Click to expand...

Good stuff. I'm enjoying this. Love this thread. Forging an axe is on my to do list.

The Forest Service is known for researching every thing they do. This is what they came up with.

3.2.1.1 Steel composition. The tool head of each type of ax shall be forged from fully killed plain carbon AISI/
SAE steel containing 0.72 to 0.93 percent carbon, 0.30 to 0.90 percent manganese, not more than 0.040
percent phosphorus, and not more than 0.050 percent sulfur. Steel composition of the head shall be deter-
mined as specified in 4.5.1.1.
3.2.1.2 Hardness. The ax bit shall have a hardness of 54 to 58 inclusive on the Rockwell C scale. This
hardness shall extend to a distance of 1-1/4 inches ±1/4 inch back from the cutting edge. Within 1 inch of the
eye of the tool, the steel hardness shall not exceed 45 on the Rockwell C scale. All hardness values shall be
determined as specified in 4.5.1.2. The specified hardness shall extend through the entire thickness of the
tool head steel.

http://cedarriverforge.com/Photo-index/axephotos/Forest Service Axe Specs - 5100_9D.pdf
 
Noticed one of my Spiller axes started getting some rust on it in a condition that I wouldn't think would be a problem. Maybe that's due to having twice the carbon as the Gransfors axes?
 
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