heat treat oven HELP

Joined
Aug 15, 2010
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273
I need some help. The connection at the bolt and element keeps burning loose on the inside of the oven. I say keeps, this is the second time in a month or so. I'm using stainless bolts with a hole drilled thru the threads. Put the element thru the hole then tighten the nut on it. I made sure not to over tighten it. Any ideas on how to make this stop burning loose?
 
You are localizing the conduction of the current to the spot where the wire enters the hole.

Put a nut on the post, then two washers, and then another nut. Wrap the wire around the post clockwise between the washers, and tighten the nuts. That should work better.

If that isn't the problem, it could be the wire. What gauge and type is coming from the SSR to the post? Also, what is the wattage and resistance of the coil, and are you sure it is drawing that? Many people calculate the wattage wrong, and draw much more current than planned.
I=E/R ..... current equals the voltage divided by the coil resistance.


I mised the part about "INSIDE THE OVEN"....the connection I am referring to meeds to be OUTSIDE THE OVEN.
 
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Don't do it that way, mine burned up every time when I tried it that way. I made several differnt connectors with the same results. Run the element thru some ceramic tube to the exterior and make connection n a protected box. That way the element isn't so hot where it gets pinched at the connection. Pinching while very hot causes the failure. Pressure and head on hard on things even if it is not a real pinch.

What I have is an electrical junction box with a cover with some holes drilled in it for some air flow. It is mounted with 4 bolts so it is held over an inch off the back of the oven My element wire comes through 1/2 holes in the furnace case packed with koawool (one for each element) then uncovered through the space from case into this box (once again through 1/2 holes) and I have a couple stainless bolts mounted so they are insulated in some high temp electrical board and then the elements and power wires connect with those. That way the element is a lot cooler at the connection than inside the insulated oven. It wasn't as complicated as it sounds. Some short ceramic tubes would work better to pass through the case. On mine the space between furnace case and junction box lets element cool some and it would be hard to get anything in there to short out or move the wires enough to hit the case or the junction box. Been working for 4 years since I did it that way and I HT D2 at 1850. Not a full time maker but make over 50 a year so it gets some use.

PS. after being fired the element wire is much more brittle. Best way I found to work it after it had been fired was to use a torch to keep it red hot while working.
 
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One side broke early this morning. I was able to heat the element with a torch enough to straighten it out so I could reattach it. I used two nuts and two washers and tightened the element between the washers. Fired the oven up got to about 1700 and the other side broke. Guess I should of changed it to while I was in there.

Stacy the wires from the SSR is 12 AWG high temp wire.

The element is the 240v one from Budget Casting Supply.

I have taken amp readings with a clamp on amp meter. I got between 11 and 12 amps.
 
While Stacy's method is better than just between 2 nuts, I recommend getting the connection completely outside the oven. I got your pm and will try to call today. Jim

Another thing about wire. You can uses a couple different gauges of element wire at 240v. I uses 14 gauge which is pretty heavy Kanthol. 50' draws a bit over 20 amps, and I run 10 gauge copper in my oven and from my electrical panel to all my 220 outlets. The same length of 16 gauge would draw 14.3 amps and 36' of 18 gauge would draw about 12 amps. Thing is the lighter wire will not survive as long as the lighter wire especially at higher heats.
 
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Please heed ib2v4u. All connections need to be outside the oven. Sorry, I missed that in the OP. Thanks for the catch, Jim.

I would run 10 gauge high temp wires to the coils, but 12 gauge is big enough for 12 amps. I tend to overbuild in these areas.
 
this is a timely post. I was just about to post a question about how to actually make the connection between the element and the 10 ga. running to the SSR. My plan was to have it outside as you suggest... but what kind of mechanical connection do I use? I have some insulating board with posts on it from the old kiln that I resurrected to my current one. Or somebody once told me of heavy duty connectors that have some kind of thermal break between the element and the wire ... I'm assuming that there is concern for the element heat to travel into the 10 ga wire???
 
You will have a thermal break between the copper and Kanthol if you use something like 1/4" stainless all thread. place a piece in your insulating board with a nut on each side. Then on the copper side connect your wire by placing on a washer then the copper wire then another washer and use another nut to tighten it. On the Kanthol side give your self half an inch or so of the board and put on two nuts tightened against each other to lock them that 1/2" off, then use the 2 washers and another nut to mount the kanthal. If you go to the hardware store you should be able to find a junction box that is open on both ends mount the insulation board to the back opening and then use one of the side plugs knock outs to mount a clamp for your copper to enter. If you solidly mount this to the back of your oven with the kanthol side toward the oven. Now your kantol can exit the back of the oven thru a couple holes big enough to give them clearance and you can electrically insulate with Kaowool or ceramic tube. as it passes thru the metal oven case. Now the Kantol starts to cool and the pieces of all thread give of heat and make it cooler yet where the connection occurs. By the time it is to the copper it is fine for the copper.

On wiring bigger is almost always better. Of course this causes you to need more wire to keep the resistance down when working with Kanthol. but then it last longer.
 
Thanks a bunch.... finally getting to the end of this thing! I will look up stainless 'all thread' .. never heard of that..
 
I've been doing it like this:

Hotside

DSCF0028.jpg


This is not the actual oven; I did a cutaway on a scrap piece of IFB to demonstrate it on another forum. I make the hotside connections in counterbored holes to reduce the chances of shorting out with a workpiece. The flat bit I use to drill the counterbore with, leaves a tapered starter hole that the M6 nut (I'm in the UK) just snugs up into.

Coldside

DSCF0029.jpg


I leave the studding (allthread) long, so it will shed enough heat between the IFB and the copper to let me use normal (i.e. cheap) mains cable.

The nuts, large diameter washers and studding are stainless. IIRC, they are A4 (316L) material. They do lose some surface to oxidation each time they are cycled to high temperatures. I'm on the lookout for 310 stainless fasteners, which keep hold of the oxide layer when they cool down and don't suffer the same degree of attrition that the more common grades do.

Note the Oxide following the tuning run.

DSCF0090.jpg


The element on this oven later failed. It was on permanent loan to a maker who assures me he'd done well over a hundred HT runs in it. He had fairly recently started playing with stainless steels, having previously worked mostly in Carbon steel, so it probably only saw tens of cycles to stainless temperatures before failing. The failure was on one of the horizontal straight bits in the photo.

I try not to cross the elements between the washers, so they don't get squeezed and form a thin spot where they cross.
 
I believe that your hot side element connection will not last long at stainless temps. Still the stainless is oxiding and swelling and there is still going to be pressure on the element connections at temps above what the oven is set to. The element has to get hotter than the inside the oven to transfer heat. It would be much better to run the ends of the elements out to your exterior inclosed area and make the connection with another set of double nuts and washers between the wall and where your copper connects. The element will be cooler there and so will the pieces of stainless that hold it.

I don't worry about shorting to a piece because my oven runs 2 SSRs and shuts off both feeds to the element when door is open. and I have racks to keep them in place while "cooking"
 
I had considered your method when I built my first HT oven. The reason I opted not to run the elements through the wall is that I could not come up with what I felt was a reasonable design for doing so.

Feeding the elements through an insulating medium seemed likely to result in overheating and rapid burnout, due to the elements' inability to shed heat by radiation from within the hole through the IFB.

I'd thought about twisting the elements, either to connect them in the oven, or to feed them out with increased cross-sectional area to reduce the heat generation where they pass through the IFB, but couldn't really see a way round a sudden reduction in effective cross-section at the hot end of the twist.

In the end, I went for the studding.

So far, I am not aware of a failure attributable to the studding method. Only one of my ovens has suffered an element burnout, and this was not at the studding, but on the straight section of the tail.

The stainless studding is M6, so has many times the cross-sectional area of the 1.29mm (16 AWG) Kanthal A1. If we assume the core diameter of the M6 x 1.0 studding to be 4mm (od- 2xthread pitch), it still has over 10 times the area of the Kanthal. Heat generation within the IFB will therefore be minimal.

If it becomes a problem, the issue with the stainless washers and studding seems more likely to be a loss of contact pressure than excessive force on the Kanthal; the expansion coefficient of the stainless is significantly higher than that of the Kanthal.

My concern has always been progressive loss of oxide layer causing poor enough contact to affect performance and/or cause burnout. It's something that I'd expect to see to some degree, but I don't know whether it will happen fast enough to cause a problem in the real world. I don't want to go chasing after a "better" way if the current way is good enough.

I considered the possibility of deforming the Kanthal where it is clamped between the washers. I use the large diameter washers in part to provide a fairly progressive reduction in clamping pressure as the distance from the studding increases.

My ovens run a contactor in series with the SSR; I have built a number of HT ovens, all of which have gone to people I like and would rather keep alive. I do not trust an SSR to provide the isolation necessary to ensure their survival, so fit the contactor in a No-Volt-Release circuit with the door switch in the hold-in circuit. Pressing the stop button or opening the door drops out the contactor until the start button is pressed whilst the door is closed. The contactor provides a real air gap, which the SSR alone cannot.

I should point out that I'm in the UK, so we have one "hot" leg at 230V and one Neutral leg at at Ground potential. I only fit the SSR in the hot leg, but the contactor breaks both the live and neutral (I gather you have 2 hot legs, so dual SSRs make more sense over there).

I also fit mains plugs with integral Ground Fault Circuit Breakers. I have racks. Even so, I still feel it is reasonable to take any simple additional measures to reduce the likelihood of shorting the elements that I can come up with, especially when they cost virtually nothing and do not detract from the performance in any way thay I can see; the counterbore is only to the same depth as the element grooves and the flat bit to cut the counterbores cost 1.43 GBP (about $2.30, which works out under 50 cents an oven).

It's not just safety; if an element gets shorted and fails, it'll probably be me that gets to change it and it's not really a job I relish.

At the moment, 4 of my ovens are with guys that will give them some use and who should be able to break them much quicker than I could. All are makers, deriving at least some of their income from knifemaking. I've had some useful feedback from them and have been able to make some improvements. Once I'm reasonably happy the design works well enough and reliably enough, I'll stick a write-up on the web and move on to the next thing that interests me.
 
I am sure you can make the connection inside work. I tried it in a method very similar to yours using 1/4" stainless (6mm) and had several failures when running over 1850f (1010c)and the first time I did sv30 at I believe 2100F (1150c). I admit I didn't use the larger fender washers . I do know that I have not had any failure since I moved the connections outside because I could no longer trust the inside setup. I run 14 gauge Kanthal.

I have seen more mechanical contractors stick, weld and fail than SSRs. I spent some of my youth repairing photocopiers. But having both in series can't hurt. I also run a set of 40amp SSRs instead of just enough. Yes your power is slightly different than ours. We have 2 out of phase 120s to make the 240 and then a neutral leg If you don't cut both you can short the one. I wasn't saying that having things recessed was a bad Idea. Just commenting on another safety feature.
 
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