Heat treat question

R

Ryan J

Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
233
I'm new to knife making. I want to buy a blade blank to customize and I have a question about heat treating. The blank I'm looking at is already heat treated so the question is can I anneal it to work on and then have it re-heat treated? Or is heat treatment something that can only be done once?
 
I know there are proper temperatures for different steels and for each heating cycle. I just can't afford a proper kiln right now to have precise temperature control. I've been looking at the Bowie blanks on jantz. I'd like to anneal one to do some file work for my Dad. Basically my annealing process is going to be heating it red hot in charcoal with a blow dryer and letting it air cool. I know this is crude to the pros on here but I've got to make due with what I have starting out. Should I hear it to non-magnetic?
 
Ryan J said:
I know there are proper temperatures for different steels and for each heating cycle. I just can't afford a proper kiln right now to have precise temperature control. I've been looking at the Bowie blanks on jantz. I'd like to anneal one to do some file work for my Dad. Basically my annealing process is going to be heating it red hot in charcoal with a blow dryer and letting it air cool. I know this is crude to the pros on here but I've got to make due with what I have starting out. Should I hear it to non-magnetic?
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Most of those blades are either 440C or AUS-8 stainless. If so, all you will do is put a bunch of scale on it. Annealing stainless requires accurate temp. control. I suggest doing the filework with diamond files or omitting it.
 
darrin sanders said:
Most of those blades are either 440C or AUS-8 stainless. If so, all you will do is put a bunch of scale on it. Annealing stainless requires accurate temp. control. I suggest doing the filework with diamond files or omitting it.
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+1 on this.
 
darrin sanders said:
Most of those blades are either 440C or AUS-8 stainless. If so, all you will do is put a bunch of scale on it. Annealing stainless requires accurate temp. control. I suggest doing the filework with diamond files or omitting it.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply. I'm just going to have to get the right equipment. I've been trying to find a work around but it just ain't gonna happen. I've seen that guys will build their own electric kilns with variable temp control, a thermometer, firebricks, and heating coils off of Amazon. I think I'll try that. I know I can make it. Just hope it doesn't take a day and a half to heat up. Other then that all I lack is an anvil. Looks like my little hobby is going to the next level
 
Ryan J said:
Thanks for the reply. I'm just going to have to get the right equipment. I've been trying to find a work around but it just ain't gonna happen. I've seen that guys will build their own electric kilns with variable temp control, a thermometer, firebricks, and heating coils off of Amazon. I think I'll try that. I know I can make it. Just hope it doesn't take a day and a half to heat up. Other then that all I lack is an anvil. Looks like my little hobby is going to the next level
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I sense a future addict.:p Keep us posted on your equipment acquisitions.
 
If you use a stainless blank...then there isn't much you can do to modify it.

If you pick a carbon steel blade, then it can be easily annealed by most any smith ( or by yourself at home with very basic equipment).

In The Exchange, there are regularly blade blanks and semi-finished blades for sale. Many of the knife suppliers sell carbon steel blades, too.

I'll give you two suggestions;
1) Fill out your profile with all the info. Location, age, interests and hobbies, occupation, etc. That helps people know you a bit better.
2) Post a photo or sketch of your plans. Who knows what might come from that.
 
bladsmth said:
If you use a stainless blank...then there isn't much you can do to modify it.

If you pick a carbon steel blade, then it can be easily annealed by most any smith ( or by yourself at home with very basic equipment).

In The Exchange, there are regularly blade blanks and semi-finished blades for sale. Many of the knife suppliers sell carbon steel blades, too.

I'll give you two suggestions;
1) Fill out your profile with all the info. Location, age, interests and hobbies, occupation, etc. That helps people know you a bit better.
2) Post a photo or sketch of your plans. Who knows what might come from that.
Click to expand...

So is carbon steel easier or more forgiving to work with for a beginner? Which would you recommend, is, 1095 a good choice to start with? I'm referring not to a blade blank but bar stock to forge. And Rick, already a confirmed addict. It's how I'm wired. If I like it I go all out. I've already done a ton of research. It started with sharpening, got fairly proficient at that and moved onto customizing my production knives, good results there so forging it is.
 
For the beginner with no HT ability, any steel is OK. Carbon steel is somewhat easier to file and sand than stainless.

If planning on doing the HT yourself with only simple equipment, 1084 is your best choice of steel. 1095 is a good steel, but the HT is more complex. My advice to most new makers is to have the HT done by someone else on your first several knives.

Filling out your profile is a good idea. That will not only tell us a bit about you ( age, hobbies, occupation, etc.) but it will tell us where you live. There might be a maker nearby who would offer some assistance, and perhaps off to have you come over for the HT.
 
bladsmth said:
For the beginner with no HT ability, any steel is OK. Carbon steel is somewhat easier to file and sand than stainless.

If planning on doing the HT yourself with only simple equipment, 1084 is your best choice of steel. 1095 is a good steel, but the HT is more complex. My advice to most new makers is to have the HT done by someone else on your first several knives.

Filling out your profile is a good idea. That will not only tell us a bit about you ( age, hobbies, occupation, etc.) but it will tell us where you live. There might be a maker nearby who would offer some assistance, and perhaps off to have you come over for the HT.
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Okay I finished my profile. Don't know if any are around here because I live in the boonies. I've spent a lot of time reading all the stickies so forgive me if I ask something I should know. The best I can find is around $18 per blade for heat treat. I can build the oven for about $100. He treat seems pretty straight forward and all the temp and time info for most steels is on here. If I can control temperature precisely should I be okay? I understand to leave the edge a certain thickness and to have symmetrical grinds to avoid warpage. Is heat treat more difficult then it sounds?
 
Ryan J said:
Okay I finished my profile. Don't know if any are around here because I live in the boonies. I've spent a lot of time reading all the stickies so forgive me if I ask something I should know. The best I can find is around $18 per blade for heat treat. I can build the oven for about $100. He treat seems pretty straight forward and all the temp and time info for most steels is on here. If I can control temperature precisely should I be okay? I understand to leave the edge a certain thickness and to have symmetrical grinds to avoid warpage. Is heat treat more difficult then it sounds?
Click to expand...

Accurate temperature and time control are needed for heat treating the stainless steels. Unless you happen to have the parts laying around, I don't believe an oven can be constructed with the PID controller, thermocouple, fire bricks, etc. for $100. Now a usable forge can be constructed for $100. But Your temperature control will be by eye and magnet. Simple 10xx steels are the easiest to work with. The heat treatment is easiest for 1084. The accuracy of your temperature control at critical (non magnetic) will probably be within +50 F. The accuracy of your temperature control will decrease as you go to higher temperatures.
 
Bo T said:
Accurate temperature and time control are needed for heat treating the stainless steels. Unless you happen to have the parts laying around, I don't believe an oven can be constructed with the PID controller, thermocouple, fire bricks, etc. for $100. Now a usable forge can be constructed for $100. But Your temperature control will be by eye and magnet. Simple 10xx steels are the easiest to work with. The heat treatment is easiest for 1084. The accuracy of your temperature control at critical (non magnetic) will probably be within +50 F. The accuracy of your temperature control will decrease as you go to higher temperatures.
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I found a dual probe pyrometer for $20. Two 2372 degree Fahrenheit thermocouples for $10 each, 3000 Watt voltage regulator for $13, and 220 volt heating elements for around $15 each . I thought I could use a simple voltage regulator and record what voltages correspond with what temperatures. Then just refractory cement and a little angle iron. The pyrometer says it's accurate to within +/- 3 degrees Celsius. I thought if I put the thermocouples in the middle just under where the knifes suspended I could get accurate readings. If you don't think this will work let me know.
 
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The theory is sound. You will still need a door. If you check around, you might find someone with an old kiln that will work at the higher temperatures.
 
The numbers sound good on your items, but that is only numbers. Just like a pry bar, you can find one for $1 or some that cost $100, the amount of work it can do and the capacity is where the difference lies.

My suspicion, based on the pricing you listed, is that most of your items are not the type or grade needed to build a knife HT oven. TCs need to be robust type K in the 10-12 gauge size with the necessary hook-up items. You need more than a readout to control the oven, you need a controller. It is most often some sort of PID device. PIDs for a HT oven need to be programmable with multi step capability (BTW, you don't use a voltage regulator on a knife HT oven). Elements need to be heavy duty Kanthal in the proper resistance and length. There is more, but you will figure that out when you read the previous threads. Think about it...if you can build an suitable oven for $100, why can't the manufacturers do the same?

I still advise most up and coming maker to make some knives and send them out in the beginning...then if the bug has really bitten you.....buy a HT oven. With the very rare exception of skilled and experienced knifemakers, a home built oven will pale in comparison to any manufactured oven like a Paragon or Evenheat.

Building things like a forge or a grinder is well worth the effort, and in many cases equals or exceeds the ones sold commercially for much higher prices. Building things like a HT oven is seldom worth the effort, and if it does not perform well, can cause a new maker to give up in frustration.

Final comment - The big question that often needs to be asked in the beginning is - "Do you want to make knives or make equipment?"
 
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