Heat Treat questions... (specific to 5160)

Mete...

I have given some thought to the 52100/5160 blade, with the 52100 on the outside and the 5160 folded inside.

However, I was thinking that as I wish to do a water quench with the blade covered in clay along the spine, that I should use a type of steel that is better in the water quench that 52100 is said to be.

I still want to do this all on my own,,,I dont want to order some steel that has to be sent away to be heattreated...

(Perhaps a knife made with 52100 outer shell, with a 5160 inner core would be the next natural step in a Fowler-type High Performance blade?)

Mete, as for the folded or laminated question you ask: There is no way I will ever be able to do that folding that the Japanese blade smiths use...I just seek to make a knife that is just slightly based on the idea of a Laminated blade useing two different steels,,,an outer steel known for being very very hard and is able to get very sharp, and an inner core of different steel that is known for being very strong so that the knife cant break.

I like 5160, I like to forge down the Load shafts,,,so I will use 5160 as the inner core because Im told that although 5160 has a lot going for it as far as being a strong steel, it yet is not able to produce the super hard edges that fine knives need to have.

P.S.,,,I have been thinking about what knife made of 52100 over mild steel would come out like?....Lots of blabesmiths use mild steel in their tangs because the mild steel is strong, I was thinking that if thats the case, why not bring the mild steel up into the spine of the blade?
 
again, thanks to all

At this point, I have the blade that I quenched five times... basically to get practice. Should I heat again to critical and quench one more time then temper (preheated oven) immediately or just temper right now?

Also, "testing" is mentioned, is that basically going through the JS test steps? On the blade I have now, I have already done the file test... the spine is basically soft as it was before, but the edge is hard because the file skates right off. I have no problem destroying this blade because I'm considering everything just part of the learning experience, hopefully to payoff later down the road.

I'll be SURE to start taking notes.

cheers,
Erik
 
Erik:
The JS test is childs play compared to what the high performance blade can be. If you are interested in the best knives you can make, invest some coin and purchase Wayne Goddard's book, The Wonder of Knifemaking, in it you will find an artilce on knife testing, this is the article that started all that is to follow, a classic that fully explains what a knife is all about.

It sounds like you have achieved a differentially hardened blade, temper and edge flex etc. But you have to do some homework.
 
Eric,

Everybody has their own way of testing knives.

Some guys cut up chicken. Some guys cut up cinder blocks. Some guys cut toilet paper. Some guys cut tatami mats. Some guys cut phone books.

THe ABS has a test for basic knife performance.. It is not a hard test to pass. BUt it is the beginning of learning about knife characteristics.

What tests you decide to use are up to you.

Frank Richtig had some good ones. And so do a lot of makers.

For me I try to be consistant. I try to use the same test on each knife, for a repeatable comparison. That means I can get a decent read on how knife number 37 compares to knife 105. I hope they are always on an upward curve for performance.

The file test can give you an idea whether the blade hardened.

The Brass Rod test will tell you if your blade is still too hard.after tempering.

And cutting tests will tell you if your edge geometry is good and if you did well in your process..

From there my friend it is Disneyland! Cut and chop whatever your knives are designed for. And chop a few things they aren't just for the Hell of it!

When I got a big knife that passes all the tests... I have a old piece of oak that came off a packing pallet. It is hard and tough. I chop on it for awhile . A good edge will show a polished cut. It will bite deep then toss the chips out. At least that is how I grind them.

PIck out the ones you like. Design some and then have fun with it.

I actually designed a funny test the other day. My little daughter was eating grapes. I hafta cut them for her. So I was seeing if I couold cut them by holding the edge of the knife about a half inch over the grape, and then quickly pushing down. The first couple squirted out and onto the floor. So I got out the stone and touch edup the edge. It took a bit but I was finally able to chop the grape cleanly with a paring knife. Then I got out one of my choppers. I squished a few pretty good.Baby really enjoyed watching Daddy mash grapes! But as I changed the edge geometry a bit. The results got better. Of course then I had to test the big choppers on the oak to see if they would hold up or if the thinner edge would fold. It was anice way to spend a few hours...and it was fun!

But testing is on the shoulders of the maker.

For me it is the icing on the cake.Or for you folks who like 'em...the gravy on your biscuit!
Shane
 
As a brand new member of the Bladeforums group, I have to say, off topic, that this is the very best source of information and useful discussion that I have yet to find on the internet. To log on and find Ed Fowler posting great replies to aspiring knifemakers (like myself) is not only surprising, but very inspiring. I've always liked the fact that most knifemakers are open to discussion and sharing information, and this site only confirms that to me even more. I was told about this site by my friend, Kirby Lambert, of Lambert Knives, and just now got around to registering, and I'm very glad I did.
 
Muminn: Welcome to Blade Forms, you will find lots of discussion, many thoughts and all sides of an issue are usually well represented. It is a nice place to be, family kind of stuff, most of the time about knives. We all come to the world of knives by choice and there is only one rule 'enjoy your time here'.
Take Care
 
shane justice said:
Eric,

Everybody has their own way of testing knives.

Some guys cut up chicken. Some guys cut up cinder blocks. Some guys cut toilet paper. Some guys cut tatami mats. Some guys cut phone books.

THe ABS has a test for basic knife performance.. It is not a hard test to pass. BUt it is the beginning of learning about knife characteristics...
Click to expand...

Shane you are absolutely correct with this. We must also bear in mind that a large majority of knifemakers and knife folks either forget, or never knew, that there is knife testing and then there are parlor tricks. Parlor tricks are great gimmicks for selling a product line, or just a line ;) but for some odd reason never work quite as well in a serious material science lab. Real testing will usually lack sensationalism to the point of being quite boring, but produces hard data that can be quantified and verified and often benefits all and not just the guy shoveling the hype. :)

So to you original good point- when I see somebody pitching a knife by using it as a masonry tool, I tend to ask "when have I ever needed a knife to do that?"
 
As yoiu see Eric: The alternatives are simple. You can send your blade to some lab, pay $250 or more, they will test it for you and in a couple of months provide some answers you may or may not understand. In the mean time you will have forgotten most of what happened to the blade while you made it.
OR you can work up some tests using the knife as it was meant to be used and if it fails try again with some manipulation of variables, then test again until you are satisfied with what happened. The knife is a simple tool, its strenghths and weakness easily tested and when compared with a reference knife you will instantly know. Like I said before you have to do some homework!

Not too long ago the wheels fell off of an experiement that had been in progress for years. I sent some blades to a lab to find out what happened. Rex was not in the lab at that time, the answers we got back were mis directed and absolutely worthless, at first I felt like giving up, I quit making knives and worked on a book about ranch stuff. Then Rex got back in the picture and he determined the source of the failure and today we continue working with enthusiasm.

Unless you are working with someone in a lab who absolutely knows knife variables and what you are doing and where you want to go, communiciation can be very clouded. Some 'men of science' never worked on anything more that paper clips while in the industry, they have a lot to learn before their 'results' will be of benefit to you in the knife realm.

There is a safety net in theory, a avirtual wilderness for those who wish to explore. the choice is yours.

When ever you hear about a test, check it out, learn how it was done and you will know more than those who dismiss the potential for learning.
 
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