How To Heat treating 1095

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Aug 17, 2020
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Hey guys so I’ve had a long debate with myself on heat treating 1095. Lately I’ve been getting way to many different ideas on it and I want something more solid. But mainly I’ve decided to create this thread now because I have a knife someone has asked me to make. I am going to do stock removal for it. My idea is too stick with 1084 for it’s simple ht, however New Jersey steel baron is out of 1084 in the size I need 2in x 12in x .125. I called them and they won’t be back in stock till mid November and that’s too long for me. I only use a forge to ht so no fancy ovens. My dilemma is they have 1095 and 8CrV2 in stock for the size I need but no 1084 so which one should I pick? I’ve used 1095 before and my method is heat to critical quench in brine for 3 sec pull out and go to the oil heated to 130F I have never had one crack out of the 5 blades I’ve done and they seem to get rock hard. So now what’s with 8CrV2? I hear it’s called 1080+ with added chromium can I heat treat it like I do normal 1084? Heat to critical and quench in 130F canola oil and be fine or will I not be getting enough out of the steel? So all in all should I pick 8CrV2 over 1095 if I ht in a forge?
 
Hey guys so I’ve had a long debate with myself on heat treating 1095. Lately I’ve been getting way to many different ideas on it and I want something more solid. But mainly I’ve decided to create this thread now because I have a knife someone has asked me to make. I am going to do stock removal for it. My idea is too stick with 1084 for it’s simple ht, however New Jersey steel baron is out of 1084 in the size I need 2in x 12in x .125. I called them and they won’t be back in stock till mid November and that’s too long for me. I only use a forge to ht so no fancy ovens. My dilemma is they have 1095 and 8CrV2 in stock for the size I need but no 1084 so which one should I pick? I’ve used 1095 before and my method is heat to critical quench in brine for 3 sec pull out and go to the oil heated to 130F I have never had one crack out of the 5 blades I’ve done and they seem to get rock hard. So now what’s with 8CrV2? I hear it’s called 1080+ with added chromium can I heat treat it like I do normal 1084? Heat to critical and quench in 130F canola oil and be fine or will I not be getting enough out of the steel? So all in all should I pick 8CrV2 over 1095 if I ht in a forge?
I recommend taking a look at Alpha Knife Supply. They have plenty of 1084 in stock and they get your order out super fast.
 
Critical temperature is not the same as austenitizing temperature.

Hoss
Ok sorry. I realize that critical is not the same and that the quench temp is 1500F and if I were to quench at either the critical OR the non magnetic point which is around 1400F it would be too low. My bad, my mind wasn’t all there when I wrote that. :)
 
A question I also was going to ask in this thread, how does one go about ht 1095 in a forge? I hear mixed things about people saying yes 1095 is beginner friendly but not the best but you can do it and be fine. Then some sound like they are saying to avoid 1095 like it’s the plague if you don’t have a heat treating oven.
 
A question I also was going to ask in this thread, how does one go about ht 1095 in a forge? I hear mixed things about people saying yes 1095 is beginner friendly but not the best but you can do it and be fine. Then some sound like they are saying to avoid 1095 like it’s the plague if you don’t have a heat treating oven.

In simple terms,

Without temperature control It's just easy to make higher carbon plain steels more brittle and less strong at the same time.

Temperature Control is Carbon Control.

More Carbon means it needs more Temperature Control.


In detail,
Temperature controls how much carbon is put in solution and with 1095 there is enough carbon to cause problems if one doesn't have control of temperatures to manage it.

With 1095 and no control it's very easy to put too much carbon in solution or even not enough trying to avoid the pitfalls I'll get into below.

All this is important because its the level of carbon in solution can change the mechanical properties of the structure (martensite) that makes the steel hard after quenching and also how much of the previous structure (Austenite) will convert to the harder phase to make the steel hard after quenching.

Too much carbon in solution not only makes the harder structure more brittle (plate martensite) but can also "clog" up the transformation during quenching and there will be some leftover (Retained Austenite) unstable, soft areas hidden throughout the structure.


Another consequence of no temp control is one can dissolve all the carbides which will also make the grains blow up in size without carbides to pin them in place, larger grains means poor strength and toughness which is two fold.


So, having more carbon and less temperature control means it's easier to make less desirable features in the steel (larger grains, high retained austenite, plate martensite) which leads to a more brittle knife even at lower hardness.

There is nothing 1095 can offer that 80crv2,8670 or 1080,1084 can't do better when one is limited by temp control I feel.

Don't get me wrong,
with better temperature control ANY steel will have better consistency of features and performance.

I feel 1095 does offer some advantage with temp control over 1080 range stuff with being able to run harder, and have slightly more strength and more wear resistance but iron carbides are still the softest carbides so it's not ground breaking.

There are plenty of folks that run forge HT with no temp control on 1095 just fine but they could be getting a lot more performance out of the steel with better control. Same goes for any on the higher carbon simpler steel like 01, Cruforge V, 52100 etc.

Some folks just like the "1095" name and it's built a reputation no one questions and is more well known.


At the end of the day, if toughness is more desired than the lower carbon steels are superior for shock resistance and impact.

Personally, I use 1095 for thin slicers at high hardness.

Overall, these details are some of the many reasons why one person's HRC in the same steel can have different performance than the same HRC and steel on another persons knife.

It's the Microstructure.

I recommend this book
by @Larrin to dig deeper if curiosity takes you.
 
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Larrin's book really explains the terminology, mythology and mechanisms involved in this well and he makes it literal fun to read :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

edit: I'm not a bladesmith or cutler, but I also say 80crv2 - it's certain "in" right now :)
 
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AKS, great service, knowledgeable, QUICK turnaround, best shipping prices I have seen (I can get several extra pieces of steel with the savings from shipping vs other suppliers).
 
Agreed, AKS is great and all their steel hardens. Well, the steel that you want to harden.
Admiral has been great too.
 
In simple terms,

Without temperature control It's just easy to make higher carbon plain steels more brittle and less strong at the same time.

Temperature Control is Carbon Control.

More Carbon means it needs more Temperature Control.


In detail,
Temperature controls how much carbon is put in solution and with 1095 there is enough carbon to cause problems if one doesn't have control of temperatures to manage it.

With 1095 and no control it's very easy to put too much carbon in solution or even not enough trying to avoid the pitfalls I'll get into below.

All this is important because its the level of carbon in solution can change the mechanical properties of the structure (martensite) that makes the steel hard after quenching and also how much of the previous structure (Austenite) will convert to the harder phase to make the steel hard after quenching.

Too much carbon in solution not only makes the harder structure more brittle (plate martensite) but can also "clog" up the transformation during quenching and there will be some leftover (Retained Austenite) unstable, soft areas hidden throughout the structure.


Another consequence of no temp control is one can dissolve all the carbides which will also make the grains blow up in size without carbides to pin them in place, larger grains means poor strength and toughness which is two fold.


So, having more carbon and less temperature control means it's easier to make less desirable features in the steel (larger grains, high retained austenite, plate martensite) which leads to a more brittle knife even at lower hardness.

There is nothing 1095 can offer that 80crv2,8670 or 1080,1084 can't do better when one is limited by temp control I feel.

Don't get me wrong,
with better temperature control ANY steel will have better consistency of features and performance.

I feel 1095 does offer some advantage with temp control over 1080 range stuff with being able to run harder, and have slightly more strength and more wear resistance but iron carbides are still the softest carbides so it's not ground breaking.

There are plenty of folks that run forge HT with no temp control on 1095 just fine but they could be getting a lot more performance out of the steel with better control. Same goes for any on the higher carbon simpler steel like 01, Cruforge V, 52100 etc.

Some folks just like the "1095" name and it's built a reputation no one questions and is more well known.


At the end of the day, if toughness is more desired than the lower carbon steels are superior for shock resistance and impact.

Personally, I use 1095 for thin slicers at high hardness.

Overall, these details are some of the many reasons why one person's HRC in the same steel can have different performance than the same HRC and steel on another persons knife.

It's the Microstructure.

I recommend this book
by @Larrin to dig deeper if curiosity takes you.
Thank you for this. This sums it up for me and makes sense.
 
This thread has been a great read, I was also questioning 1095 vs 1084. I’m just getting into stock removal knife making with a forge. I ordered some 1084 from alpha knife supply and it was on my porch in three days.
 
I got some 1095 3/16 from RMP I was really nervous about the heat treat procedure.since everything I read advised against doing it without temperature control wich I do not have. seems how I’m a simple guy with a do it yourself means. Long story short I made a knife from the 3/16 1095 got it up to the shade of red past non magnetic an quenched it in good ol ATF. It passed the file test with flying colors no warps or cracks. I then tempered it in the kitchen oven at 400f for 1 hour let it cool and checked the edge for chipping or rolling on a brass rod with pretty heavy pressure and it passed that test. Now I did use the term non magnetic but to be honest I didn’t even touch a magnet to it I’m no pro but it’s not the first knife I have heated up I just eyeballed it. So my point is don’t always believe what you read with that being said I am not saying that the pros aren’t telling you the truth because they are mine could have just been luck but then again I know better. I was always taught there is more than one way to skin a cat I’ve lived by this for years and have practiced an perfected this an many times have came up with the same outcome as someone else but done a different way. I honestly wasn’t gonna mess with this 1095 it was one of those deals I bought it first then researched it lol but due to what I read I was thinking screw it im not messing with it I’ll get some 1080. I’m sure glad I did make a knife out of it any questions feel free to ask
 
I got some 1095 3/16 from RMP I was really nervous about the heat treat procedure.since everything I read advised against doing it without temperature control wich I do not have. seems how I’m a simple guy with a do it yourself means. Long story short I made a knife from the 3/16 1095 got it up to the shade of red past non magnetic an quenched it in good ol ATF. It passed the file test with flying colors no warps or cracks. I then tempered it in the kitchen oven at 400f for 1 hour let it cool and checked the edge for chipping or rolling on a brass rod with pretty heavy pressure and it passed that test. Now I did use the term non magnetic but to be honest I didn’t even touch a magnet to it I’m no pro but it’s not the first knife I have heated up I just eyeballed it. So my point is don’t always believe what you read with that being said I am not saying that the pros aren’t telling you the truth because they are mine could have just been luck but then again I know better. I was always taught there is more than one way to skin a cat I’ve lived by this for years and have practiced an perfected this an many times have came up with the same outcome as someone else but done a different way. I honestly wasn’t gonna mess with this 1095 it was one of those deals I bought it first then researched it lol but due to what I read I was thinking screw it im not messing with it I’ll get some 1080. I’m sure glad I did make a knife out of it any questions feel free to ask
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First the threads a year old, second throw out the atf and get some commercial quenching oil like parks 50 for 1095 or any 10xx steels for that matter.
 
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