How To Heat treating 1095

Joshua Fisher said:
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First the threads a year old, second throw out the atf and get some commercial quenching oil like parks 50 for 1095 or any 10xx steels for that matter.
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I’m not saying the transmission fluid is the best but it got the job done without the expensive parks#50 an far as edge retention an ability it gets hair popping sharp and hasn’t dulled yet! I didn’t have any questions about the process just wanted to let others know that it can and has been done without special equipment or quenchents
 
Jesse Latham said:
As my old friend Wayne Duke told me: "Even a blind hog gets an acorn once in a while". Take Kevin Cashen's data to the bank if you're making knives.
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That’s a good saying one I’ve heard most of my life. However I have used atf on many different types of steel and on many different shapes and sizes and they all turned out good so I guess that blind hog would be a fat blind hog
 
Backwoods1234 said:
I got some 1095 3/16 from RMP I was really nervous about the heat treat procedure.since everything I read advised against doing it without temperature control wich I do not have. seems how I’m a simple guy with a do it yourself means. Long story short I made a knife from the 3/16 1095 got it up to the shade of red past non magnetic an quenched it in good ol ATF. It passed the file test with flying colors no warps or cracks. I then tempered it in the kitchen oven at 400f for 1 hour let it cool and checked the edge for chipping or rolling on a brass rod with pretty heavy pressure and it passed that test. Now I did use the term non magnetic but to be honest I didn’t even touch a magnet to it I’m no pro but it’s not the first knife I have heated up I just eyeballed it. So my point is don’t always believe what you read with that being said I am not saying that the pros aren’t telling you the truth because they are mine could have just been luck but then again I know better. I was always taught there is more than one way to skin a cat I’ve lived by this for years and have practiced an perfected this an many times have came up with the same outcome as someone else but done a different way. I honestly wasn’t gonna mess with this 1095 it was one of those deals I bought it first then researched it lol but due to what I read I was thinking screw it im not messing with it I’ll get some 1080. I’m sure glad I did make a knife out of it any questions feel free to ask
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Well, if that excites you, you'll like it even better with a proper soak with good control at the right temperature, some parks 50, cold treatment and a good temper.

Customers will also appreciate it more as well.
 
DeadboxHero said:
Well, if that excites you, you'll like it even better with a proper soak with good control at the right temperature, some parks 50, cold treatment and a good temper.

Customers will also appreciate it more as well.
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I’m not doubting what your saying at all the only thing I’m wondering is how close to the full potential of the 1095 did I get with ATF vs parks? If it’s super close then I don’t see a point in buying parks 50. If there is still a bit of room left for improvement then yes I’ll buy some more expensive parks lol. I have annealed a flat file then re hardend it with atf just to see if I could get the same hardness level. I got the file back to as hard or harder than what it previously was? That’s why I’m wondering if the parks #50 is worth it ? Yeah I get the whole it’s not to safe stuff but then again I’m sure pumping gas is toxic to an extent an has carcinogenic effects same as the batteries being made for electronic devices and all of the electronic devices you have around you right now. So with that being said I’m not to worried about the toxicity with ATF as heat treat oil it’s not like I’m trying to inhale every cloud vapor .
 
Backwoods1234 said:
I’m not doubting what your saying at all the only thing I’m wondering is how close to the full potential of the 1095 did I get with ATF vs parks? If it’s super close then I don’t see a point in buying parks 50. If there is still a bit of room left for improvement then yes I’ll buy some more expensive parks lol. I have annealed a flat file then re hardend it with atf just to see if I could get the same hardness level. I got the file back to as hard or harder than what it previously was? That’s why I’m wondering if the parks #50 is worth it ? Yeah I get the whole it’s not to safe stuff but then again I’m sure pumping gas is toxic to an extent an has carcinogenic effects same as the batteries being made for electronic devices and all of the electronic devices you have around you right now. So with that being said I’m not to worried about the toxicity with ATF as heat treat oil it’s not like I’m trying to inhale every cloud vapor .
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With an inferior quenchent it won't cool the steel fast enough while submerged.

1095 is very demanding and needs a fast quench otherwise the carbon you're trying to trap to harden the blade will escape and make softer structures that won't be removed with cold treatment, tempering etc.

Parks 50 gives you the speed you need without going so fast you risk extreme warps, cracking and breaking. So, it pays for itself in the end.


The problem with using improper quenchents with a steel like 1095 is that you'll have softer patches (pearlite) hidden in your hard microstructure that can't be detected with a file because the file just rides over it.

This translates to an edge that will not be as strong and stable as it could be.

Translation: won't hold an edge good

I know personally from making mistakes and not having the right equipment when I got started.

Like yourself, I didn't understand all the "mumbo jumbo" when I was new and thought it was overblown.

Well, its not.

I highly recommend investing in the parks 50.

You'll also enjoy better temperature control with a good furnace like an Evenheat when you decide to invest in that. Using the right austenitizing temperature is perhaps the greatest factor for performance in HT so its very important.

It only gets better the more you invest in it.

You can run a comparison with a knife you send out to a heat treatment service and see if you see a difference for yourself.

Have Fun.
 
I do appreciate the advice an I’m looking into some parks 50 . However 1095 has been around for a while right? Wasn’t it treated before parks 50 in the past an had no problems? If so what was the methods an quenchants? I am curious enough to get parks 50 an do the final treat an break the blade in half. Then do the same with atf and compare the 2? I’m not saying parks 50isnt the way to go along with the proper heating just I don’t see why it has to be so specific it’s metal that you heat just past non magnetic hold for a period of time an quench if your blade hardens mine did then you got it an if your blade gets sharp I mean hair popping sharp mine did then you got it and if your knife holds an edge for a good while again mine did then you got it. Isn’t that the same results you are seeking using the fancy equipment an the parks 50??
 
Is it easier an more reliable to get the best results with parks 50 and the proper heating. By all means yes I would sure hope that it is. Does it have to be done with parks 50 an proper heating? I’m not 100% positive but I do know it is possible and I’m pretty positive I can do it again and again. Most of the things I do have a textbook way your supposed to do them yet everything I do has is an can be done without the textbook ways
 
Prior to fast quenchants (which have been around for a long time) 1095/W1/W2 was quenched in brine.

The issue isn't so much soft patches in the matrix as it is the amount of carbon in the final structures. With an incomplete HT there is likely to be not much more than the eutectoid in the blade, which is basically 1084/1080 IOt will harden, and it will take an edge. It just won't get as hard as properly HTed 1095, or last as long.

I can't say if ATF is a bad or good quenchant personally, but what I read is that it is less than optimal. I don't recall any scientific testing ratings, but there amy be some out there.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Prior to fast quenchants (which have been around for a long time) 1095/W1/W2 was quenched in brine.

The issue isn't so much soft patches in the matrix as it is the amount of carbon in the final structures. With an incomplete HT there is likely to be not much more than the eutectoid in the blade, which is basically 1084/1080 IOt will harden, and it will take an edge. It just won't get as hard as properly HTed 1095, or last as long.

I can't say if ATF is a bad or good quenchant personally, but what I read is that it is less than optimal. I don't recall any scientific testing ratings, but there amy be some out there.
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Brine is something I haven’t messed with any advice on using it? Prices ? Dos? Donts ? I have also been wondering about quenching 1095 in water? I was reading something on 1095 and it said it was originally a water quenched steel? Now keep in mind that’s something I found on the internet I don’t quite believe it nor do I know if it’s true ? I have quenched leaf spring in water with no issues so maybe I’ll try 1095
 
S
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Prior to fast quenchants (which have been around for a long time) 1095/W1/W2 was quenched in brine.

The issue isn't so much soft patches in the matrix as it is the amount of carbon in the final structures. With an incomplete HT there is likely to be not much more than the eutectoid in the blade, which is basically 1084/1080 IOt will harden, and it will take an edge. It just won't get as hard as properly HTed 1095, or last as long.

I can't say if ATF is a bad or good quenchant personally, but what I read is that it is less than optimal. I don't recall any scientific testing ratings, but there amy be some out ther
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Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Prior to fast quenchants (which have been around for a long time) 1095/W1/W2 was quenched in brine.

The issue isn't so much soft patches in the matrix as it is the amount of carbon in the final structures. With an incomplete HT there is likely to be not much more than the eutectoid in the blade, which is basically 1084/1080 IOt will harden, and it will take an edge. It just won't get as hard as properly HTed 1095, or last as long.

I can't say if ATF is a bad or good quenchant personally, but what I read is that it is less than optimal. I don't recall any scientific testing ratings, but there amy be some out there.
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So if I understand this right I may have gotten 1095 to harden an temper well with a backyard heat treat and an atf quenchant. But only to the level of what 1080-1084 would normally be right? So with that being said I didn’t fail I’m just not using the full potential of the 1095? Is that what I’m to understand out of this? If so it makes perfect sense now ?
 
So if I understand this right, I may have gotten 1095 to harden and temper well with a backyard heat treat and an ATF quenchant. But only to the level of what 1080-1084 would normally be right? So, with that being said I didn’t fail I’m just not using the full potential of the 1095? Is that what I’m to understand out of this? If so, it makes perfect sense now.

Correct, it may not have gotten all that 1095 can be, but it is still usable and probably a good knife. Many purists and technical people forget that knives were far worse quality until very recently. As a kid, a good knife blade was barely over Rc50. Rc54 was really hard.

1095 is a water quench steel by classification. However, in a knife blade thickness the stress can cause cracks and breaking, as well as severe warping. It takes skill and precise control to get water quenching down on these steels. Normally, water/Brine is only used in yaki-ire to attain the most active hamon.

Water quench is a general term. In knifemaking, the water is a brine solution around 8-10%. That is 3 to 4 pounds of salt in 5 gallons of water, or 800-1000 grams of salt in 10 liters water. It is warmed to around 120-130°F/50-55°C

The most popular water/brine quench method today is an interrupted quench. The blade is rapidly quenched in the warm brine solution for 3 seconds and then immediately quenched in an oil quench (ATF or most any oil would be fine here). Hold it steady in the oil for 8-10 seconds and remove to check for warp. You have a few seconds to try and straighten the blade, or you can just clamp it between two thick metal plates.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Correct, it may not have gotten all that 1095 can be, but it is still usable and probably a good knife.

1095 is a water quench steel by classification. However, in a knife blade thickness the stress can cause cracks and breaking, as well as severe warping. It takes skill and precise control to get water quenching down on these steels. Normally, water/Brine is only used in yaki-ire to attain the most active hamon.

Water quench is a general term. In knifemaking, the water is a brine solution around 8-10%. That is 3 to 4 pounds of salt in 5 gallons of water, or 800-1000 grams of salt in 10 liters water. It is warmed to around 120-130°F/50-55°C

The most popular water/brine quench method today is an interrupted quench. The blade is rapidly quenched in the warm brine solution for 3 seconds and then immediately quenched in an oil quench (ATF or most any oil would be fine here). Hold it steady in the oil for 8-10 seconds and remove to check for warp. You have a few seconds to try and straighten the blade, or you can just clamp it between two thick metal plates.
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Thanks for the info and clearing up my confusion Mr.Apelt. I suppose having just parks 50 is useless without a way to do the proper temperature control as well?
 
I wouldn't say that. I use #50 and regularly use the forge and a well-trained eye (plus a magnet) to HT 1095/W2/and Hitachi steels. It has the speed to get the steel fully hard (Rc65+) but is gentle enough to reduce cracking to a rare event. It will work for attaining a hamon. Maybe not as active as brine, but certainly quite attractive, and far less risky.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
I wouldn't say that. I use #50 and regularly use the forge and a well-trained eye (plus a magnet) to HT 1095/W2/and Hitachi steels. It has the speed to get the steel fully hard (Rc65+) but is gentle enough to reduce cracking to a rare event. It will work for attaining a hamon. Maybe not as active as brine, but certainly quite attractive, and far less risky.
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I’m thinking I’ll buy some parks 50 an for the time being keeping my heating method. That should let me use the full potential of the 1095 correct? If not I need to stop buying 1095 an get some 1084-1080 just shipping is what’s stopping me
 
I'd say get the #50 and work out a HT regime for your 1095 that gives good consistent results. HT as evenly and slowly as possible to non-magnetic plus a shade brighter (1425-1475°F) and quench. Nighttime is the best time for such a quench.

Just as a side comment, 1084 gets a bad reputation as being a mediocre steel. That is far from the truth. Properly Hted, 1084 attains a very high hardness (Rc64 as-quenched) and has good knife blade properties. It's popularity for beginners is that it is very forgiving of being somewhat overheated or underheated. Most any fast oil will harden it.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
I'd say get the #50 and work out a HT regime for your 1095 that gives good consistent results. HT as evenly and slowly as possible to non-magnetic plus a shade brighter (1425-1475°F) and quench. Nighttime is the best time for such a quench.

Just as a side comment, 1084 gets a bad reputation as being a mediocre steel. That is far from the truth. Properly Hted, 1084 attains a very high hardness (Rc64 as-quenched) and has good knife blade properties. It's popularity for beginners is that it is very forgiving of being somewhat overheated or underheated. Most any fast oil will harden it.
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Thank you Mr.Apelt I will do that I didn’t know that about 1084 thanks for the clarification. I can get all the 1095 I want with free shipping but 1084 from New Jersey steel baron is $30+ dollars just for shipping so I been avoiding it. And I did find a oil heattreat chart an your right as well as some other people atf is a slow type oil but hey you live an learn I’ve learnt a lot today I will be buying some #50 an working things out. Is there a way to test hr without the expensive files?
 
The best heat treatment requires the right equipment, the proper condition of the steel prior to austenitizing, the correct quenchant, adequate soak time, good steel, cryo, proper tempering, and practice. Forged in Fire type heat treatment only work for television.

Hoss
 
DevinT said:
The best heat treatment requires the right equipment, the proper condition of the steel prior to austenitizing, the correct quenchant, adequate soak time, good steel, cryo, proper tempering, and practice. Forged in Fire type heat treatment only work for television.

Hoss
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As does most things on television. Thanks for your info insight
 
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