Heat treating 154 CM-George Herron's recipie

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godogs57

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Apr 16, 2004
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Woke up early this morning and to my surprise on Fox Sports (the outdoors show version) they had a very well done tribute to Mr. Herron. It was on Bob Redfern Outdoors. A number of knifemakers familiar to this board were interviewed as well as a lengthy interview with George himself. The interview was from a show a few years ago and was a "This is how I make my knives" show.

In that show he went into the ht process and mentioned his recipie. I am sure it is not all that different from the rest of the folks but wanted to know some more specific info if someone can help me. The kids were running around, I'm hard of hearing, and just plain missed a couple of points.

I heard him say he ht's at 2040 degrees for 40 minutes (this is when my hearing went to crap). He then mentioned 300 degrees for some period of time and then tempering two times at 950 for I believe he said two hours each.

Questions: Given what I thought I heard, do you think the "300 degrees" was a cryo treatment? And the 950 degrees tempering 2x - I have always heard you don't need to temper at high temps, but I swear I heard it. Is that in the proper range for tempering?

My reasons for asking is that I use 154CM and CPM 154 CM and my recipie differs from his by a good bit. With the assumption that he was infinitely better than me at knifemaking, I would like to use the opportunity to better myself and my knives if possible.....I, like everyone else, can always learn something new.

If a cryo treatment is in the recipie I will need to search for alternatives, as I don't have this ability.

Any help would definately be appreciated! Thanks in advance.

Hank H.
 
You and me both! George wan an old and dear friend. And a very much appreciated mentor. Yep, the 300 is -300. 2040 is a little higher than I go, but will work just fine. 154, and ats are secondary hardening alloys. you use the high end of the scale to pick up a point of Rc, with a slight reduction in toughness, and corrosion resistance. (Not all that Important on a using hunter). Or you can use the low side of the scale in tempering. (drawing), and use a triple temper (if not using the sub-zero), to refine the steel. both methods do very well. I have the hunter that George make for Bob Loveless in my vault, and you can bet it's not going anywhere. Mike
 
Mr. Herron did not heat treat his own blades for the 25 years that I knew him. He was probably relating the process that they went through at his commercial heat treater. I'd love to see a copy of that show.
BB
 
godogs57 said:
If a cryo treatment is in the recipie I will need to search for alternatives, as I don't have this ability.

Hank H.
Click to expand...

I'd be careful about going that far beyond Crucible specs without knowing the whole detailed process. Crucible shows a max of 2000 for 30 minutes - and at that temperature, cryo is absolutely required.

If you aren't using cryo, the lower temperatures - longer soaks will give you better results.

Rob!
 
You can cryo, and with a high alloy stainless you might want to. Some steels retain quite a bit of austenite after the quench, but it helps complete the conversion if taken very cold. See this graph:

http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/graphCooling.jpg

You might already know all this.

You can also see you're getting into diminishing returns going all the way to -300.

If you want to try it, all you have to do is go to the grocery store and get some dry ice. I get mine at Harris Teeter. Costs less than $10. Then you dissolve it in acetone. Put your blade in. There you go. Simple.

It must be done as part of the quench, don't wait.
 
Hey Folks,

Thanks for your replies. I don't have access to cryo treatment and don't want to do the pain in the butt thing of mailing them off. My recipie is as follows: 1900 degrees for 25 minutes OR 1920 degrees for 20 minutes. I then temper 2x @ 475 for two hours each. I end up with a 59-60 on the Rc scale. Am I off base on my heat treatment? The reason I ask is that there are so many on this board that are ht junkies or ht experts...I am not. I am just a hobby knifemaker just trying to get a little better with each knife.

That show is liked at: http://www.broutdoormagazine.com/

It was listed as today's show. It will be re-broadcast on Tuesday and Thursday at 2:30 PM according to the website. Check it out and see if you get any of the channels listed. Someone with more brains than I should record it for the rest of us. I loved that jig he made up to grind his blades. He was certainly a heck of a nice guy. I got two of his knives from him at the Southeastern Wildlife Expo and he always made me feel welcome anytime I got the chance to chat with him and his wife.
 
godogs, I have some info on HT for 154CM and ATS 34 on my site
www.seamountkniveworks.com I use a higher temp than most, up to 2040 like Mr. Herron mentioned. At the higher temp you will pick up a lot of retained austenite and the best way to resolve it is with a cryo cycle. You don't have to use liquid nitrogen, dry ice in alchohol will work ok. The 300 mentioned may be a temper temp. These steels have a hardness bump at around 300 just the same as at 950 or so. The best hardness for CPM 154 is 61 in my experience. The edge won't roll and still tough enough for a good slicing type blade. PHIL
 
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