Heat treating and cutting capbilities...

Joe,
I've already said too much and I'm 99% sure where this thread's headed,hope it don't but seen too many of them already.
If you wanna' give him a call,he's very personable,plus your an ex-soldier aren't you?
Ya'll will get along fine.

Doug

I have also heard that he is very personable one-on-one. I wasn't meaning to cast aspersions on his work or what he has done for some of the troops. Just pointing out that he, like a number of others in this biz, can have somewaht interesting and quirky personalities...lol. Same with D.E. Henry. I would love to be able to afford one of his 3rd or 4th Gen bowies, but like I wouldn't mind having one of Shiva's big Spirit Blades one of these days:D To me knifemaking is like music or any other artistic endeavor. If you produce a superior product, that comes first in my book. It is different when a person is producing stuff of marginal or questionable quality and has quirks to boot...lol Shiva seems to have gotten the scary sharp part down pat from what I have heard.
 
David, you pose a good question.
I want to know if my maker has the ability and know how to do his own heat treat. Does he believe in himself and his knives enough to invest in the equipment? If he is sending it out, is that because he doesn't want to bother or because he knows someone else can do it much better, or control the process more finitely? How involved are they when they send something out? If they can honestly and straightforwardly prove to me that what they are doing results in a better hands-on knife for me, I'm willing to look at their product. I want to see their attention to every detail in that knife.
 
Good points by all. in my case, I have managed to aquire some of the proper tools, those being my Paragon and 5 gallons of Park's #50. The OTHER important things that I have aquired are batches of a couple of high quality steels, Don's W2 and Aldo's 1084, that are known quantities. I don't have a Rockwell tester and won't be able to afford one for a little while, but I do have a number of "recipes" from smiths who are much more experienced than I who are using the same steels. That has helped quite a bit. But it is still a learning experience. Most recently, i learned that even poor piddly old Admiral 1075/1080 comes out a point or two harder when quenching in #50 than in Tough Quench or home made quenchant. The old quench in tranny fluid/motor oil and temper in the kitchen oven bit that could leave an edge too soft leaves it too hard when using Parks. That required a change in the tempering regimen. If ya ain't learning something new, you have probably quit making knives.:D
 
Do collectors consider Heat Treating to be something they require a maker to do themself? Does a knife's value to a collector go down if they know that one of the chief processes has been farmed out to a third party, or are they happy that a maker does this?

I'm thinking that most stainless stock removal enthusiasts don't care either way and that the forgers are expected to know something about heat-treating. Having the knives look and behave as expected or better is probably more important to most buyers.
 
Expensive equipment does not always translate into superior heat treat. Ive sold very expensive digitally controlled ovens to go back to a good propane fired heat treat forge that gives me MUCH better results.

Heat treat is a funny thing, I can give another maker the exact way ive treated a blade, both using steel from the same batch etc... and we will come out with different results. IF it were as simple as whats written in a book then there would be little to no trouble out there with heat treating, and it wouldnt really even be a topic.
 
Expensive equipment does not always translate into superior heat treat. Ive sold very expensive digitally controlled ovens to go back to a good propane fired heat treat forge that gives me MUCH better results.

Heat treat is a funny thing, I can give another maker the exact way ive treated a blade, both using steel from the same batch etc... and we will come out with different results. IF it were as simple as whats written in a book then there would be little to no trouble out there with heat treating, and it wouldnt really even be a topic.

I agree with Matt's basic premise. :)

You can't take skill, intuition and experience out of the equation, without taking the smith out of the equation...
 
Chisels, screwdrivers, prybars, sockets, drill bits, springs, gears, valves, etc, etc, etc. Industrial HT certainly does not assume one inch thick sections for a massive amount of steel items.

One thing I really enjoy about Kevin Cashen's posts are his straightforward suggestions. If getting full martensite conversion is a problem, switch steels.
 
Chisels, screwdrivers, prybars, sockets, drill bits, springs, gears, valves, etc, etc, etc. Industrial HT certainly does not assume one inch thick sections for a massive amount of steel items.
.

True. But many heat treat guides assume that dimensional stability and avoiding cracking are a high priority and therefore may not attempt to maximize properties that maximize edge retention in some complex steels. I can't think of any manufactured part where the heat treat is more critical than it is in a knife simply because a knife edge will eventually fail in one of three ways in normal use, so obtaining every ounce of potential (for this application) out of the steel really matters. To me it stands to reason that a heat treat optimized for the shape and application of a knife is not readily available for all the knife steels, though I'm sure it is for some.

As I stated earlier, the heat treating suggestions for D2 (as an example) from the manufactures and in the heat treater's guide do not give a "recipe" optimized for a knife application. The steel is designed to retain austenite, which is not good for most knife applications. The heat treat guides do go into cryo and austenitizing temperatures and multiple high temperature tempers to convert some retained austenite, but fundamentally stabilized retained austenite is viewed as a good thing, but generally, in a blade, it is not. This might lead you to believe that D2 is a poor choice for a knife steel, and for certain, when done poorly it takes a lousy edge and keeps it forever. But when a knife maker is using an optimized heat treat, you will find that D2 has an unusual combination of good toughness, good corrosion resistance, and good abrasion resistance that makes for very outstanding fine edge performance in many applications.

The original premise that I disagree with is that all the information a knife maker needs to make a fully optimized heat treat for his knife is available in literature and he simply needs to program his digital furnace accordingly. This may be true for the simple steels, but it is not true for the complex steels. The metallurgical principals are out there for a knife maker to read and try to understand what is happening inside the steel, so there is no magic or special voodoo. But I believe it is not hype for a knife maker working in a complex steel to "brag" about nailing their heat treat. It is an accomplishment, and it is relevant.
 
One thing I really enjoy about Kevin Cashen's posts are his straightforward suggestions. If getting full martensite conversion is a problem, switch steels.
+1 on your post,hardheart.:thumbup:
I suspect you're not the only one that enjoys his posts. ;)

Doug:)
 
Back
Top