Heat Treating, art or science?

[grease-man]

I've come to realize recently that for me to make a knife, I need philosophy, art, science, and probably a few other things I haven't thought of. Is one any more important than the other?

I have a desire that comes from within myself to create something...to let that thing "become what it is". I, as the creator of "the thing from within", am going to have to learn a lot of things to assist me along the way. Whatever these things are, I am willing to learn them.

I'm not a very good artist, philosopher, or scientist...but I'm working on improving my knowledge in these areas. -Matt-

 

[Tai Goo]

Here is my view, at high risk of "fullofshitness", so I'll leave any final comment to the real pros here (Kevin and Mete come to mind): heat treating is BOTH art and science.

If heat treating is both art and science, then it is art, not science. Art can mix with science, but science can't mix with art and still be science... not true science anyway.

I think Mete is a good example of a true scientist. However, we are artists, knifemakers and bladesmiths, not scientists.

Science can attempt to "explain" what we do to the metal physically, but it can't justify it or discredit it from a personal, cultural or artistic perspective.

 

[Alarion]

There are separate processes involved.
Deciding which properties do you want, and that's art.
Getting those properties as you want them, and that's science.
I believe this approach is called "structuralism", and this brings us to philosopy.
Uhm...

 

[Tai Goo]

Like I said, it's a philosophical question and can't be answered scientifically... but that doesn't make it wrong.

It's still a good question.

Personally, I don't see any reason or logic in trying to distill or "sterilize" any living art form down to a science. It seems self defeating and takes away from the true character of the heat treating "process" in context to art and handmade knives.

Sterilize:
To destroy the ability to reproduce by removing the sex organs or inhibiting their functions,... or to make barren or unproductive.

... or stagnant.

Stagnant base text book metallurgy.

 

[Tai Goo]

... fixation and obsession on the details. Mosaic and oblivious to the bigger picture.

 

[deker]

I'll take #42 please!

Thanks to Nick Wheeler for the awesome giveaway! You're dreamy!

-d

P.S. Not trying to ruin this thread further...this is just the un-official "hey guys, let's bring this one back" post....

 

[eyeeatingfish]

I guess what still puzzles me is why do some companies have better heat treats than other companies. Any company of decent size can afford th computer controlled oven and punch in the exact heat treating recipie, so why do some people say this company has a bad heat treat or this company does a real good heat treat with this metal?
Unless the recipies are secret?


Also how would you do 1095 in a kiln? Does it have a process where it doesnt need the quench or do you just pull it out and quench it real fast?
I have a bar of 1095 that I intend to do something with but no forge.

 

[Alarion]

Like I said, it's a philosophical question and can't be answered scientifically... but that doesn't make it wrong.

It's still a good question.

Personally, I don't see any reason or logic in trying to distill or "sterilize" any living art form down to a science. It seems self defeating and takes away from the true character of the heat treating "process" in context to art and handmade knives.

Sterilize:
To destroy the ability to reproduce by removing the sex organs or inhibiting their functions,... or to make barren or unproductive.

... or stagnant.

Stagnant base text book metallurgy.

Science is seldom if ever sterile or stagnant.
And, just because you use a method in your art, doesn't make it sterile.

 

[Alarion]

I guess what still puzzles me is why do some companies have better heat treats than other companies. Any company of decent size can afford th computer controlled oven and punch in the exact heat treating recipie, so why do some people say this company has a bad heat treat or this company does a real good heat treat with this metal?
Unless the recipies are secret?


Also how would you do 1095 in a kiln? Does it have a process where it doesnt need the quench or do you just pull it out and quench it real fast?
I have a bar of 1095 that I intend to do something with but no forge.

I believe it mostly has to do with production costs and the compromise between cost and quality that a given company chooses.
Most hi tech steels were born just to get good steel manufacts with an easy, economic manufacturing processes.
In a given industrial process, usually materials are the least cost, even if they are pretty expensive, compared to production time and machinery and, above all, labor, which is the most expensive part.
Plain carbon steel can produce great knives, but requires a skilled hand and time.

 

[LRB]

I think some folks here have spent too much time in the 60's, whether they lived then or not!

 

[galadduin]

I guess what still puzzles me is why do some companies have better heat treats than other companies. Any company of decent size can afford th computer controlled oven and punch in the exact heat treating recipie, so why do some people say this company has a bad heat treat or this company does a real good heat treat with this metal?
Unless the recipies are secret?


Also how would you do 1095 in a kiln? Does it have a process where it doesnt need the quench or do you just pull it out and quench it real fast?
I have a bar of 1095 that I intend to do something with but no forge.

I know some people that work in/own these kind of companies. They do batches of thousands of knives. I was shocked that they were heating those knives 100 degrees in celcius lower than the required minimum austenization temperature I asked why and the response was quite shocking, they were complaining about bends of quenched blades so they decided to lower the temperature and they were quite happy with the results :barf:

Emre

 

[Tai Goo]

Science is seldom if ever sterile or stagnant.

The type of science and method we are talking about in context to heat treating conventional steel knife blades here, is very sterile and stagnant. It's a subject that has been closed and dead for a long time... The best one can do is regurgitate the information. This is not necessarily a bad thing though, because it gives people a sense of security and groundedness.

Heat treating is now the frontier of artists and engineers,... not scientists.

The new frontier is in "creative" heat treating. I don't really understand why some people seem so threatened and offended by that.

 

[sunshadow]

True art is when the form is unhindered by the technical problems of the medium so the creator's vision is truly realized. As a professional photographer with a business doing high end color and black and white printing for 25 years it became very apparent that the only way to truly realize the full potential of a piece of art (image or other art) is to learn to control and manage ALL of the variables involved in the process so that everything in the finished product is intentionally there. Random variables are *NOT* art, they are poor craftsmanship. If I make an image and the blue area prints cyan because I didn't pay attention to lightsplash from a yellow wall that is not art, that is poor craftsmanship, if my blade will not cut as well as the steel's potential suggests then I have not controlled the variables, hence POOR CRAFTSMANSHIP

You can make the most beautiful blade in the world, if it doesn't cut, it is not a knife

-Page

 

[Tai Goo]

You can make the most beautiful blade in the world, if it doesn't cut, it is not a knife

-Page

The knife as an archetypical symbol cuts,... whether is heat treated, sharpened or not.

 

[Jack O'Neill]

I guess what still puzzles me is why do some companies have better heat treats than other companies. Any company of decent size can afford th computer controlled oven and punch in the exact heat treating recipie, so why do some people say this company has a bad heat treat or this company does a real good heat treat with this metal?
Unless the recipies are secret?


Also how would you do 1095 in a kiln? Does it have a process where it doesnt need the quench or do you just pull it out and quench it real fast?
I have a bar of 1095 that I intend to do something with but no forge.

read some of the sticky's please . To answer your question , all knife steels need a quench , air or oil or or . The oven does not do it.

 

[Carcara]

1095 needs to be quenched you can't just cycle it in an oven. If you had some robotic arms or an conveyor system I suppose you could program it all in and do it all untouched by human hands.

I think a good heat treat can be either or, Art or Science. I have noticed in the roster of ABS mastersmiths, which are arranged in alphabetical order there are
two smiths that come one right after the other. The first heat treats by eye in a darkened room quenching in water, and tempers by eye. The next one uses salt baths, kilns, thermocouple controllers. engineered quenchants. They both tested as master smiths and I assume both make serviceable knives. I know the first one also
took first place ina sharpening contest held in another knife forum even if he does do everything by art, and a cultivated feel.

 

[Nebulae]

for industrial applications, and heat treaters, and even knife makers who make and HT a lot of blades its mostly a science. for casual knife makers who heat treat on their own its more of an art. How about Hamons that's really artsy

 

[SShepherd]

for industrial applications, and heat treaters, and even knife makers who make and HT a lot of blades its mostly a science. for casual knife makers who heat treat on their own its more of an art. How about Hamons that's really artsy

PLease explain why

 

[Alarion]

True art is when the form is unhindered by the technical problems of the medium so the creator's vision is truly realized. As a professional photographer with a business doing high end color and black and white printing for 25 years it became very apparent that the only way to truly realize the full potential of a piece of art (image or other art) is to learn to control and manage ALL of the variables involved in the process so that everything in the finished product is intentionally there. Random variables are *NOT* art, they are poor craftsmanship. If I make an image and the blue area prints cyan because I didn't pay attention to lightsplash from a yellow wall that is not art, that is poor craftsmanship, if my blade will not cut as well as the steel's potential suggests then I have not controlled the variables, hence POOR CRAFTSMANSHIP

You can make the most beautiful blade in the world, if it doesn't cut, it is not a knife

-Page

That's the science part in the art.
Structuralism, structuralism...

 

[Alarion]

1095 needs to be quenched you can't just cycle it in an oven. If you had some robotic arms or an conveyor system I suppose you could program it all in and do it all untouched by human hands.

I think a good heat treat can be either or, Art or Science. I have noticed in the roster of ABS mastersmiths, which are arranged in alphabetical order there are
two smiths that come one right after the other. The first heat treats by eye in a darkened room quenching in water, and tempers by eye. The next one uses salt baths, kilns, thermocouple controllers. engineered quenchants. They both tested as master smiths and I assume both make serviceable knives. I know the first one also
took first place ina sharpening contest held in another knife forum even if he does do everything by art, and a cultivated feel.

Still mingling science with technology.
I bet the first smith is not less scientific than the second. He just uses low tech.
Also, I bet that if I were to lean my hand cranked coal forge, anvil and tool shed to Kevin, and he was to lean me his gas forge and salt bath lab, his knife would be still a helluva better than mine.
Science is the method by which we achieve predictable, repeatable results by observing a process, changing one variable at a time so to eliminate guesswork and confusion, then working out a theory from the observed data, and finally making tests to validate the theory. This allows us to get better, correct mistakes and, to put it in layman terms, get the knife we want, and not the one that happens to be there at the end of an uncontrolled manufacturing process (i.e.: mucking about cluelessly).
The art is all in what we want. The science, in how to get there.
Even Michelangelo had to know the properties of the stone he sculpted to get the Moses.
Even a genius like Leonardo happened to muck about cluelessly with the Last Supper, not knowing which were the properties of the materials he used, so that his masterwork may be artistically all right, pity now it's reduced to some crusty scraps of color on a peeling wall (believe me, is less then 10 minutes from my home, I've seen it and, live, it's really a sad sight. )