heat treating kiln

marekz

marekz

Joined
Jun 16, 2008
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any opinions or reccomendations on this kiln. do you think it would be good for heat treating? thanks http://www.clay-king.com/itemok1414fl.html $225 more for a digital. i was comparing this with the paragon km 22 ( 24 )-for around 1300 plus 120 for shipping so this one would be a few hundred less. thanks again
 
Check with Tim Zowada for an Evenheat oven. It has a side opening door which is much easier to deal with. The price should be in about that same range.
 
well that makes sense- i was so set on a digital controller--why i really dont know. if i can heat treat steel without it then why would i need it. im not going to set it then go out for a movie and dinner. ill be there with it working on other stuff so i can moniter it and set the tempts by the anologue. with the sugar creek is the 2,000 degrees good enouph? what knida of steels or process would need more than 2,000 degrees. thanks
 
You want a digital controller to be able to dial in the temp and soak blades. I've used the analogue sugar creek many many times and I can tell you that you'll never be able to dial it in and hold it as well as a digital controller. The dial just isn't as precise.
 
crap when you soak the blades i thought you heat them first then dip them into a certain degree medium-like oil. thats what i thought soaking meant. so i dont understand what you mean exactly. you soak them in the kiln? thanks
 
Some steels like O1 and most of the stainless steels should be soaked (held at a certain temp) for a few minutes to get the carbon into solution. Depends on what steel you are working with.. You can still do it without the digi controller, it is just a little less precise. Once you get used to where a temp is on your dial you can hit it within +/-10 degrees. After the soak if one is called for, just ease the dial up to your hardening temp let everything equalize then quench in the appropriate quenchant. Call the folks at sugar creek, nice people/ great price.
 
Many of your complex or stainless steels need a soak (hold at certain temperature) even upwards of 30-45 minutes. When you're talking about temps in excess of 1800 degrees, it can be hard for some kilns to maintain temperature without constant adjustments over the entire length of that time. That's the advantage of a digital control: being able to set a target temperature and let the controller do the adjusting to within 1-2 degrees. I don't have any experience with these kilns, but they look good. I even considered getting one before I built my own.

--nathan
 
The kiln you were looking at is a pottery kiln and the shape is a huge waste of space and energy.

You do need a digital controller unless you want to stand over it for hours at a time tweaking the dial. I know you are probably willing to that right now to save a bit - but sooner or later, it is going to p*ss you off SO MUCH. ;)

Either Sugar Creek or Evenheat should do well for you. Consider a side opening door, so you don't have your hands over a 2000 degree door when you are reaching in with tongs or pliers for your blades.

Rob!

BTW, 'soak' refers to keeping the metal at temperature for a designated time. 'Quench' is the word that describes cooling the steel in oil or brine or air or whatever is appropriate to the steel.
 
well i like the even heat so far--$960-shipping approx--$160-but none have a side door?? which kilns do. im waiting to see shipping. ill only need thr standard digi control that comes with it right? im trying for the 22" one. thanks mark btw i can get the complete set up delivered refering to sugar creek large kiln for under $850---well i still may go for that---evenheat or sugarcreek whata ya think
 
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and if i just went for the anologue sugar creek i suppose i can get 80% or better with it right? or would it be less. i guess i could always get a digi control later--that would be even cheper without the digi--$600
 
sir rocket man you have not been using a digi. is it cause of all your years of experience that you could getaway from not using it or do you really think its not that neccesary. thanks
 
I don't have all that many years of experience :D. Like I stated in the 1st post, I paid xtra fro the digi-controler but now after talking to to the makers of differrent ovens, I think that I could do without it.. I don't do alot of stainless and I am willing to play arround with the oven a little.. I'm not a full time maker so I'm not in a rush when I'm in the shop. I like to piddle arround down there. It is the same thing with belt grinders. I spent a lot of money on variable speed controllers, now I know that I could have gotten away with a step pully system and saved enough cash to buy an analog oven.. To each their own. I dont know if we allways have to have the latest and greatest tools if we are hobby/part timers...:o Have fun and good luck !!!
 
i know what you mean, i got a vs set up. i will see if i really needed it or not when i learn more!! i so early in all this im trying to go slow but ive got lucky with some cash and if i dont buy the stuff now , ill have a really hard time buying it later. thanks rocketmann
 
marekz said:
-but none have a side door?? which kilns do. im waiting to see shipping. ill only need thr standard digi control that comes with it right?
Click to expand...

By side door, I mean it opens sideways - right to left - as oppsed to top to bottom. The Evenheat does. Not sure about sugarcreek.

The Standard Set Pro controller is fine. The only disadvantage to it is that there is no numeric keypad. You have to 'scroll' to the numbers you want with an up and down arrow system. You'll dislike it at fist but it comes easily after a few uses.

The Rampmaster II controller adds about $85 I think and it gives you a numeric keypad (nice) more steps in your program (not needed for us) and 6 programs stored instead of 4. (again, nice but not a need).

The 22.5" is a good choice. It's higher power than the 13.5 or 18" and will handle some sizeable blades without getting the tip too close to the coils.

Rob!
 
marekz,

I understand about trying to make the most of what you've been blessed with. If you feel that the savings can be used better elsewhere, go ahead with the analog setup. Beginning with more basic steels, it won't be as big a problem to sit and fiddle with the oven. You'll be looking at soak times of a couple of minutes up to 12-15 or so for steels like O-1. You can always (I believe) add the digital control later on. I will tell you that it is nice to "set it and forget it." Of course, that's not what you do. I always keep an eye on the oven, but I can do other things while the steel is baking without worrying about the temperature. There is alot to be said about convenience.

--nathan
 
I didn't respond to this thread at first, but wanted to interject some advice.
The digital controller is probably not a necessity at 1500F for a 1084 HT. But at 1925F for a CPM stainless HT it is absolutely necessary. It is also a bit of a problem to keep the oven at 450F for 2 hours during tempering, without the controller. To do a proper HT with a pre-heat at 1200F, then ramp up to a soak for 20 minutes at 1550F would be a chore to do accurately by hand. Another great use of the controller is a programed annealing cycle for ,say, 12 hours.
I have owned several burnout ovens (jewelers ovens) without controllers, the ones with the controllers beat them hands down. I wouldn't trade my one Paragon HT oven for two uncontrolled ovens.
Stacy
 
with the basic up and down digi controller offered by even heat-it was stated that it can hold 4 programs and once you get use to the arrows versus numeric push buttons it would be fine. So the things mr.stacy had mentioned would all be possible with the basic evenheat digi--is that right.?. the paragon is aliitle above my budget- comaring overall size and power,, so im really leaning towards the 22" model if i dont need to upgrade on the digi. any one have an evenheat and would like to comment on its performance and accuracy. Can you program an annealing cycle like the one Mr. Stacy had mentioned "say 12 hrs" can you ramp up from a 1200 preheat to 1550F for a soak time of 20 minutes--as stated above. thanks yall http://www.tzknives.com/horizontalkilns.html - definetly doable- the 18" ( seriously wouldnt 18" be enough)very doable.i could also opt for a paragon 14" but that would be knida small . the paragon 24 would blow my whole budget and i would be broke for awhile, but maybe its worth it http://www.kilndr.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_3_22&products_id=374--i wish they had an 18" or always a choice is the sugarcreek with a digi for under 1,000 http://www.sugarcreekind.com/big-knife-kiln-p-2809.html. i know im manic again sorry fellows
 
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yes, you can do all those things. Remember these are all 230V so you may have some wiring to do. Note that there is only $45 difference between he 22.5 inch and the 18 inch. You'll also need foil or something to exclude oxygen and if you are working stainless, quench plates will make a wonderful difference. (Maybe you should start without to appreciate the difference better. ;))_

The evenheats weakness was considered by many to be the hinges. They didn't fail, but would sag a bit. The new ones have much better hinges now.

The evenheat is responsive to just a few degrees temperatue change, seldom changing more than +/- 3 degrees during a long soak. AS far as accuracy goes, any oven will exhibit different temperatures at different spots in the oven. The controller is adjustable and there are ways to measure temperature at different points. It can be measured electronically. Some will tell you you can use cones, but they don't measure temperature - they measure heat work. Orton has a product called tempcheks that work well. All this is way more than you need to start. The oven will function just fine as you receive it.

That is a very good price on the link you sent. Evenheat recently increased prices by about 7%. They may not have implimented the hike yet.

Rob!
 
The Paragon 14 is a great oven....don't be scared away by the cost.

110v - plugs in anywhere

I can actually fit a 16" knife in there, corner-to-corner, no problem...as long as it's not 1/8" thick....:foot:....and 14-15" is a lot of knife. I do wish I had the 24" version some days...but I rarely do anything that can't fit in the 14" oven....and less room inside means quicker up-to-temp heat times. :thumbup:


I looked at many heat-treat ovens....and then I read some great advice.

Heat-treating is the single most important aspect of knifemaking...period.

Grinds can be off....edges can be off...handles can be mis-matched...but heat-treat can NOT be off, or else you get failures. And I've had my fair share...before I got my Paragon. ;)



If your interest in knifemaking is as a hobbyist, I have no problem with any of the above ovens (except pottery kilns....waaaaaaay toooooooooo slooooooooow :D).

If you intend to make money off your work and like to sleep easy at night, you need the best heat-treat oven you can get.


There is no question in my mind about whether or not digital controls are necessary.

I DO "set it and forget it" all the time. I don't have time to sit and watch the pot boil...got other stuff to do.

It's been shown on this forum extensively that lengthy soak time does not ruin steel in a controlled environment. As long as you have passed the minimum time required by the steel, you are ok. So...if you get stuck working on something else...it's ok to come back to it later.

I don't understand what's difficult about the door on the Paragon...*shrug*...piece of cake to me...just had to get used to it. I like that I can drop the door and not worry about it...and concentrate on the quench.

I've heat-treated hundreds of blades in my Paragon...and have beaten it up pretty good. Happens. Thankfully, it is built like a tank.


YMMV

my 0.02


Dan
 
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