Heat Treating - thoughts?

SharpByCoop

SharpByCoop

Enjoying the discussions
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Oct 8, 2001
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One area of custom knives—and a MOST crucial area—is the process of heat-treating the blade to a final hardness.

Depending upon steel materials used and the processes that are unique to each steel, this proves to be a very complicated and worthy skill.

This process can probably determine the worthiness of a blade in hard use. It's not voodoo, but, rather, a methodological approach to understanding the physics and chemistry of changing steel composition by heat and cooling at the microscopic level. (Did I get that right...?)

That said, I know nothing more about it than I have stated. It's a daunting enough skillset and knowledge base that many makers may be be less trusting of themselves or their equipment to get it right, and so subsequently they are confident that if they send their blades to a specialist, this task will be done to perfection.

I have heard others say that the heat treating is the basis of a custom knife, and that outsourcing diminishes value. Another will say that inferior heat treating diminishes a custom knife even more so.

What do you think? Let's discuss...

Coop
 
i wanted to make sure i was doing things right got an even heat and LN bottle for cryo before i even got a good grinder
a nice looking knife thats not heat treated right is just art an ugly knife thats treated right is still a good knife/tool (its jsut not purdy ) :)
 
I used to get my heat treating done by Moe Price in Toronto and never had a bad blade.Not one complaint .The thing that I always found was that I had a hard time coming up with enough pieces to make it worth the drive . Also it was the only operation that I wasn't doing myself and that was the biggest factor in starting to do my own heat treat. I found that as soon as I started doing it myself my level of satisfaction went way up, even if the knife was a Dog or I totally blew the heat treat . No one to point the finger at but me and it feels good. Paul
www.savageknives.ca
savageknives@golden.net
 
Proper heat treating is the most important asp-ect of making a knife that will function properly. I would much sooner have a knife that had the heat trating outsourced than have a crappy knife.

My personal preference for the knives I collect is for the heat treating to be done by the maker of the knife, but outsourcing will not necessarily be a deal breaker. For users I don't care who does it, as long as it's done right.
 
Who cares about heat treat as long as it's preddy. :eek:;):D:D

But seriously, I also prefer heat treat by maker.
 
I see heat treating as the most neccesary thing for a custom made knife. I out-source my stainless because Im not confident enough to do it myself. I certainly cant do them as well as Paul Bos so I spend the $10. Carbon steel knives on the other hand are easy enough for me and Ive tested to destruction enough blades to be proud of them.
I think the customer deserves the best I can give them even if it means out-sourceing.
 
Bruce Bump said:
I see heat treating as the most neccesary thing for a custom made knife. I out-source my stainless because Im not confident enough to do it myself. I certainly cant do them as well as Paul Bos so I spend the $10. Carbon steel knives on the other hand are easy enough for me and Ive tested to destruction enough blades to be proud of them.
I think the customer deserves the best I can give them even if it means out-sourceing.
Click to expand...

so there you have it.......an answer by a professional!!!!!!!! :D
 
I can quote my good friend Jerry Rados, who, at the beginning of my knife making told me, "Jesus himself could send a bar of steel down from Heaven, but it'll only be as good as the heat treatment it gets".
Heat treating is, by far, the "make-break" point in a knife's creation. A little more time at this temperature, or a little less temperature at this time, with this particular steel, and you have an entirely different knife.
A high % Carbon steel poorly done knife can get whooped by a low percentage carbon knife done correctly.
I've made MANY mistakes. I've held a performance knife at too high a temp for too long during the hardening sequence that broke at the first flex, yet have had others that cut like a laser and could NOT! be destroyed.
It's up to the maker to try the "tried and true" industry standard heat treating recipes for the particular steel he's using at the time, keep track of his methods for later use, and keep track of the performance he gets.
I'll tell you what, it's difficult to spend hours and hours forging, grinding, heat treating, tempering, finishing, etc. on a knife only to take it into the next room and DESTROY! it!
Remember what Dirty Harry Callahan said?
"Man's got to know his limitations".
Well, as makers, we need to know our knives' limitations.
I could not in good conscience sell a knife to one of you guys without knowing what it can and cannot do.
 
kbaknife said:
I can quote my good friend Jerry Rados, who, at the beginning of my knife making told me, "Jesus himself could send a bar of steel down from Heaven, but it'll only be as good as the heat treatment it gets".
Heat treating is, by far, the "make-break" point in a knife's creation. A little more time at this temperature, or a little less temperature at this time, with this particular steel, and you have an entirely different knife.
A high % Carbon steel poorly done knife can get whooped by a low percentage carbon knife done correctly.
I've made MANY mistakes. I've held a performance knife at too high a temp for too long during the hardening sequence that broke at the first flex, yet have had others that cut like a laser and could NOT! be destroyed.
It's up to the maker to try the "tried and true" industry standard heat treating recipes for the particular steel he's using at the time, keep track of his methods for later use, and keep track of the performance he gets.
I'll tell you what, it's difficult to spend hours and hours forging, grinding, heat treating, tempering, finishing, etc. on a knife only to take it into the next room and DESTROY! it!
Remember what Dirty Harry Callahan said?
"Man's got to know his limitations".
Well, as makers, we need to know out knives' limitations.
I could not in good conscience sell a knife to one of you guys without knowing what it can and cannot do.
Click to expand...

Good post Karl....:thumbup:
 
I agree with Tai. If either edge geometry or heat treat is OFF, the knife is not going to going to perform as well and probably will fail. Good thread, Lin
 
Geometry and heat treating have to be balanced and work in conjunction with each other.

The reason I put geometry first is because the “knife” is defined by it’s geometry. Heat treating alone will not make a bar of steel cut. The heat treating supports the geometry. Function follows form.
 
Well said Tai.

I also feel that heat treating is most important but is lost with poor blade geometry. They must work together.
 
Engaging responses, thank you. So far I have not heard a single negative voice pointed towards outsourcing. I know of a colorful member on these forums that feels otherwise. And... he knows a fair bit more than I.

What is the counter?

Coop
 
I used to have Paul Bos do my heat treating. I'd send my blades to Bob Engnath and they'd go with his batches. That way I got a better price. I also got 3-4 week teunaraounds, so I quit doing that.

Ultimately I studied the subject a bit, got a dewar to go along with my paragon furnace, and started doing my own. I read every thread on heat treating. particularly those by Mete and Kevin. As steels get into higher performance, heat treating is bound to change. I also attend seminars put on by Crucible.

I do all that because I want to have sole authorship. If I lacked the equipment, however, I'd have to outsource heat treating. It's much too important for it to be done poorly.

Sole authorship is a wonderful thing, but gets a maker nowhere if the heat treat keeps the knife from performing at its best.

Edge geometry is really important for a cutter, but take the best edge there is on a 440C or ATS34 knife, heat it with a torch and quench it, then call it good? No way, although some makers do exactly that. All a poor heat treat does on a custom knife is give all makers a bad name.

I was in Goddard's class at the ABS school when a student accidentally made his knife from 1018. It was athing of beaty, and he actually completed the rope cut test. When he tried to chop the 2x4 the edge went flat, but it still cut the rope, something most thought was impossible. He did a good heat treat on a poor steel.

Conversely, I have a Paragon auto opener in ATS34. That knife won't hold an edge for anything. If the steel is correctly marked, it must have one of the world's worst heat treats.

If we lack the tools and knowledge to do a proper heat treat, outsourcing is the only way to make a quality knife.

My 2 cents.

Gene
 
I must sound like a broken record, but I'll say it again a different way. Done by the maker is preferred IF the process is described in some detail. I know their reputation is earned and respected through performance, yet trust is easily exceeded by trust plus a description of the heat treat, temper, and quench with a few comments on why it is done so for that particular blade and tang, and what performance can be expected as a result. My view of a custom blade is one that will outperform a similar production, then any aesthetics that visually make it superior are most welcome.

A statement of the maker's design goals adds yet another dimension, justifying both the sum of the parts and the steel treatment chosen. It becomes then, at least to me, elevated in stature as a custom product.

To just say the treatment was done by so-and so, or not mention it at all, leaves me to trust the reputations of two people. Descriptions of why and how just make me feel better, so I am drawn to those blades that include the whole story. If I were a maker and did my own heat treating I would be very proud to describe the process I chose and why, or of why I had a specialist do it to my specifications.:) Regards, ss.
 
We all agree that heat treating is a critical element of the knife. I want the best knife that I can get for my money. If a maker feels that another person can do a better job of heat treating than he can, I admire his and respect his decision to offer a knife that is the best product that he can offer even if has to outsource the heat treating.

In my opinon, it does not degrade the knife. I think it is wonderful if the maker does his own heat treating IF, and this is a huge IF, he knows enough about metal and is equipped to do it properly. Otherwise, I would not be any more concerned about outsourcing it than I would be about outsourcing the scrimshaw or engraving work.

In some cases I think it would even enhance the value of the knife. I know if I see "Paul Bos" on the blade or in the description it is not going to put me off because the maker didn't do the heat treating.
 
Let’s throw some "intuitive mathematics" into the equation.
mr-natural.jpg
 
When I commission a knife I want as much of the process performed by the maker as possible. From the forging-grinding-heat treating-making of the fittings and assembly hardware-assembly-engraving-finishing-final polishing. I prefer working with makers who can do it all and do it well.
 
I have my own thoughts on the pros and cons of doing your own heat treatment.

Pros: You have complete control over the heat treat, it can be modified for specific types of blades and/or customers. A commercial heat treatment is generally a one-size-fits-all kind of thing, they have to make sure that their heat treatment won't fail in any application it might be used for, rather than optimizing it for one. However, having said that, the one commercial heat treater I have worked with was very open to working with me to find an optimum heat treatment, or to follow my own heat treatment as closely as they could.

Cons: I don't agree that buying your own heat treating equipment is cheaper in the long run, heat treating can be time consuming (time is money), I think it's cheaper and easier to send it out. Also, IMO, about 1% of knifemakers know enough about edges, steel, and metallurgy to design heat treatments for particular applications.
 
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