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Heat Treating - thoughts?
- Thread starter SharpByCoop
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MVF
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I don't mean this the way it sounds, and I respect the fact that this was said with the best intentions, but for myself I don't want a maker who is interested in "cheaper and easier".
On the other hand, I sure hope you're wrong about how many know how to heat treat! I see very few complaints about custom knives/edges, but who knows how many ever get used?
On the other hand, I sure hope you're wrong about how many know how to heat treat! I see very few complaints about custom knives/edges, but who knows how many ever get used?
Larrin
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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It is my opinion that most knifemakers that do their own heat treatment simply follow someone else's recipe, and those that follow their own add in new things that do absolutely nothing, or are actually detrimental. The blades are still quite high quality, but highly optimized? No. There are of course exceptions. But I can't imagine as many as, say, 10% of knifemakers have more than the most basic knowledge of metallurgy, how edges act, and also test their knives with multiple heat treatments and steels.
As far as following the basic recipe, when working with a basic catagory of high carbon steel, be it 5160, 1084, 52100 or O1, you will still have to tweak it to the particular batch of steel that you are working with. You don't have to have the "basic recipe" but it helps to have a starting point. This is what is taught to most bladesmiths and is quite widely known by almost all the knife makers that I know or have knowledge of. The tweaking of the "basic" formula will enable the maker to get the most from his "batch" of steel. The first book I learned from, "How to Make Knives by David Boye" went into detail about even when using old saw blades, get the heat treat right by testing and then it would probably be good for the entire saw blade (one batch). There are some things that some makers do that do not affect the outcome of the heat treat, and it doesn't matter what it is, "it doesn't matter".
I am sorry that some have such a low opinion of the skills of makers that heat treat their own knives.
Twenty years ago when it was hard to find some one to help out and to learn from, there were probably a lot of under performing knives. These are usually given to relatives and friends until the knives reach a level that is acceptable to some one that will pay for it. Ther buyer is usually directed to the maker by some one that has used the knife and reccommends it. Even then it may not be "optimum" but is probably better than anything used to that date. We continue to improve and at such time as the maker decides to buy a table and let the public look at his knives, most of the buyers are safe. I know of no one that will pay very much money for a knife without knowing something about the maker. Whether it is a custom or factory.
Some of the exotic (high performing stainless steels of recent developement) steels usually need some exotic (precise temps and holding times) heat treatments. That is for Paul Bros or another equally qualified heat treater.
This is or course only my opinion and I guess that I am lucky to have such good knife making friends that do indeed seek to improve their heat treat by testing and comparing notes with other makers working on similar metals. They also continue to share that knowledge with those that ask so it isn't such a mystery anymore. This forum and others have many threads that relate to heat treating and if you follow some of them to the professionally written papers on heat treating and various techniques in producing the type of blade made for the job, you will have no excuse for not progressing in your quest for the better blade. Mr. Kevin Cashen has contributed a lot to several of the forums and is one of the people that I have listened to.
Several others also have quite a wealth of information but they don't usually post on the forums. You just have to seek them out. Find some one that can make a blade that performs better than others. Find some one that is willing to test their knife against others. Find some one that is not afraid of failure when seeking to make a better blade. And, whether or what ever you think of the cutting contests, they are a proving ground for heat treat, edge geometry, and technique.
Sorry to ramble on so much but it bothers me that there are some that think that a maker that does his own heat treat and does it right is so rare. I know that a lot of custom knives are never used, I also know that the ones that are used will outperformed its predecessor and that is why it is still being used.
By the way, I see nothing wrong with some one else doing the heat treat if the maker has any qualms in doing it. I have shown many people how I do it and explained the process and the requirements of the steel before the heat treat.
I am sorry that some have such a low opinion of the skills of makers that heat treat their own knives.
Twenty years ago when it was hard to find some one to help out and to learn from, there were probably a lot of under performing knives. These are usually given to relatives and friends until the knives reach a level that is acceptable to some one that will pay for it. Ther buyer is usually directed to the maker by some one that has used the knife and reccommends it. Even then it may not be "optimum" but is probably better than anything used to that date. We continue to improve and at such time as the maker decides to buy a table and let the public look at his knives, most of the buyers are safe. I know of no one that will pay very much money for a knife without knowing something about the maker. Whether it is a custom or factory.
Some of the exotic (high performing stainless steels of recent developement) steels usually need some exotic (precise temps and holding times) heat treatments. That is for Paul Bros or another equally qualified heat treater.
This is or course only my opinion and I guess that I am lucky to have such good knife making friends that do indeed seek to improve their heat treat by testing and comparing notes with other makers working on similar metals. They also continue to share that knowledge with those that ask so it isn't such a mystery anymore. This forum and others have many threads that relate to heat treating and if you follow some of them to the professionally written papers on heat treating and various techniques in producing the type of blade made for the job, you will have no excuse for not progressing in your quest for the better blade. Mr. Kevin Cashen has contributed a lot to several of the forums and is one of the people that I have listened to.
Several others also have quite a wealth of information but they don't usually post on the forums. You just have to seek them out. Find some one that can make a blade that performs better than others. Find some one that is willing to test their knife against others. Find some one that is not afraid of failure when seeking to make a better blade. And, whether or what ever you think of the cutting contests, they are a proving ground for heat treat, edge geometry, and technique.
Sorry to ramble on so much but it bothers me that there are some that think that a maker that does his own heat treat and does it right is so rare. I know that a lot of custom knives are never used, I also know that the ones that are used will outperformed its predecessor and that is why it is still being used.
By the way, I see nothing wrong with some one else doing the heat treat if the maker has any qualms in doing it. I have shown many people how I do it and explained the process and the requirements of the steel before the heat treat.
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I've been hammering steel for 37 years. I've made knives of files, automotive springs, saws, bearing races, garage door springs, potato digger tines, hay rake tines, and a bunch of other stuff that I can't remember, as well as many different kinds of new steel.
I have learned a lot about how to treat a given steel, and how not to treat it. Every knife teaches me something. I believe in doing all the work myself, and have done just that after I learned how to do my own heat treating. And I am still learning.
I agree that geometry is probably as important as proper heat treat. Can't do much with a poor job of either one. We should all be working at doing the best job we're capable of. It is the only way I know of that will lead to improvement.
I have learned a lot about how to treat a given steel, and how not to treat it. Every knife teaches me something. I believe in doing all the work myself, and have done just that after I learned how to do my own heat treating. And I am still learning.
I agree that geometry is probably as important as proper heat treat. Can't do much with a poor job of either one. We should all be working at doing the best job we're capable of. It is the only way I know of that will lead to improvement.
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Good post, Ray....Long but good 
For me, heat treating is half the fun. I wouldn't think of letting anyone else do it.
Larrin, I respect your knowledge about steel and heat treating but I feel your numbers are way off. How many knives have you made?
Your statement, makes 99 out of 100 makers look bad.
Too many broad blanket statements being made here lately and negative to
For me, heat treating is half the fun. I wouldn't think of letting anyone else do it.
Larrin, I respect your knowledge about steel and heat treating but I feel your numbers are way off. How many knives have you made?
Your statement, makes 99 out of 100 makers look bad.
Too many broad blanket statements being made here lately and negative to
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I think a knifemaker shows their love for their craft by learning everything they can about the materials they use, and if heat treating is so basic to the quality of the blade, then a knifemaker who strives to perfect that practice in addition to their other practices will have more staying power in general, ergo, more potential for creating a legacy in their work, and therefore long term collectibility. It's not the practice of the heat treating, it's the interest in being well rounded and striving to perfect all aspects of their work. Collaboration is one thing, outsourcing is another.
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Bravo:thumbup:, well said.
The makers I collect, take pride and tremendous effort in every process of making the knife, so I'm never worried in the least that it's not properly heat treated.
Larrin
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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I'm not talking about myself, I'm talking about knifemakers. A lot of makers are more concerned about actually making knives rather than the final performance. A lot more makers are just picking the steel that others are using and sending it off for heat treament, or are following a recommended heat treatment. After that there aren't a lot of makers left (percentage wise) that are trying to achieve high performance, it's not hard to get down to 1%. I'm talking about makers trying to achieve optimization, not simply a good all around heat treatment. A lot of people want just a good all around heat treatment, and there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that.Good post, Ray....Long but good
For me, heat treating is half the fun. I wouldn't think of letting anyone else do it.
Larrin, I respect your knowledge about steel and heat treating but I feel your numbers are way off. How many knives have you made?
Your statement, makes 99 out of 100 makers look bad.
Too many broad blanket statements being made here lately and negative to
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- 361
I don't think it necessarily makes anyone look bad to state that a low percentage KNOW the skill. It could be stating that not very many people (makers) know the skill intimately (which I would agree with-if not with the same low number).
They could be just following a recipe. This isn't bad necessarily and in most cases probably isn't producing a poor knife. It just means that many makers probably don't know the science of metallurgy enough to know WHY they soak for particular time, or why at that temp, or why they quench quickly. Those that do, have the advantage of another skill set they can use to squeeze the last bit of performance from their knives.
So, getting to the question: I would like the maker to do all of the work on their knife. However, this isn't usually going to affect my purchase (unless the maker does their own and can't convince me they know what they are doing). A maker who does their own heat treating (and especially one who experiments with the process and tests their knives often enough to really hone in--no pun intended--on performance gains) is just icing on the cake.
Nick
They could be just following a recipe. This isn't bad necessarily and in most cases probably isn't producing a poor knife. It just means that many makers probably don't know the science of metallurgy enough to know WHY they soak for particular time, or why at that temp, or why they quench quickly. Those that do, have the advantage of another skill set they can use to squeeze the last bit of performance from their knives.
So, getting to the question: I would like the maker to do all of the work on their knife. However, this isn't usually going to affect my purchase (unless the maker does their own and can't convince me they know what they are doing). A maker who does their own heat treating (and especially one who experiments with the process and tests their knives often enough to really hone in--no pun intended--on performance gains) is just icing on the cake.
Nick
Larrin, Are you just guessing about the heat treating capabilities of all knife makers and you think they should have some one else do it or do you know 200 makers real well and only two of them "really" know what they are doing.
I don't know any knife makers that don't care how their blades cut. It is beyond my comprehension (sp) to think that some one would take as much time as it does to produce a hand made knife and not have any idea about the heat treat.
Or is it that if some one doesn't have a degree in metalurgy, they don't know how to heat treat. Sorry, I am not buying the 1%.
If you don't know many makers and can't come up with some real figures, than please keep you low opinion of knifemakers heat trating skills to yourself. I do know a "Lot" of makers and my figures are 50% do a great job with the steels they work with and the other 50% are catching up or are intellegent enough to have their blades heat treated by some one that has the equipment needed for their blades.
Maybe you should make some more friends and I am not trying to be mean about it. Come to a few knife shows and watch a few cutting competitions to see how people are testing the old and new steels performance. Ask them how, who, and what they did to make their knives perform as they do. Stop listening to a few makers claim of being the only ones able to make a knife that will perform to the ultimate degree.
I don't know any knife makers that don't care how their blades cut. It is beyond my comprehension (sp) to think that some one would take as much time as it does to produce a hand made knife and not have any idea about the heat treat.
Or is it that if some one doesn't have a degree in metalurgy, they don't know how to heat treat. Sorry, I am not buying the 1%.
If you don't know many makers and can't come up with some real figures, than please keep you low opinion of knifemakers heat trating skills to yourself. I do know a "Lot" of makers and my figures are 50% do a great job with the steels they work with and the other 50% are catching up or are intellegent enough to have their blades heat treated by some one that has the equipment needed for their blades.
Maybe you should make some more friends and I am not trying to be mean about it. Come to a few knife shows and watch a few cutting competitions to see how people are testing the old and new steels performance. Ask them how, who, and what they did to make their knives perform as they do. Stop listening to a few makers claim of being the only ones able to make a knife that will perform to the ultimate degree.
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Good post, Ray....Long but good
For me, heat treating is half the fun. I wouldn't think of letting anyone else do it.
Larrin, I respect your knowledge about steel and heat treating but I feel your numbers are way off. How many knives have you made?
Your statement, makes 99 out of 100 makers look bad.
Too many broad blanket statements being made here lately and negative to
Well said Don and Ray. I can only assume that 1% number was pulled out of the air simply to be provocative. If not, I'd like to see the supporting data.
Roger
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I would say, if we were going back to the thread as to where custom knife collecting is headed in the next five years, and less than even 10% of makers were the only ones heat-treating/testing their products properly, I would say it was headed right down the drain!
No way is this the case. :thumbup:
- Joe
No way is this the case. :thumbup:
- Joe
To call into question 99% of maker's heat treat skills is at least mildly inflammatory. I can also assume that in those 99% a lot do send out for HT, which speaks well of them, in that they want to give the customer the best they can. But I can only speak for the makers that I associate with. They by and large DO know how to heat treat the steels they use. They test their blades and make sure it's right. As to whether or not it's 100% perfect in the HT, I cant say.
Perhaps a better way to describe it is, I want to get 100% of performance out of the steel, but will admit 99% aint bad either. Does that keep me out of the 1%? A STANDARD is a must for each maker. In fact I am redoing the HT on a blade right now, as we speak, because it was not up to snuff. It will be though or get discarded. I, and I know most of the guys I hang out with, wont pass a substandard knife off to a customer. It is made to be used.
Good thread, Lin
Perhaps a better way to describe it is, I want to get 100% of performance out of the steel, but will admit 99% aint bad either. Does that keep me out of the 1%? A STANDARD is a must for each maker. In fact I am redoing the HT on a blade right now, as we speak, because it was not up to snuff. It will be though or get discarded. I, and I know most of the guys I hang out with, wont pass a substandard knife off to a customer. It is made to be used.
Good thread, Lin
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Larrin, I can sorta see what you're saying. Like a report card in school. Only 1% are making 100%.
But how many are at 90-99%? Still an A or A+........
I still think your number is low. Just a guess, right?
But how many are at 90-99%? Still an A or A+........
I still think your number is low. Just a guess, right?
Maybe it is as Larrin says, and maybe even less than the 1% know how to make the perfect knife. Maybe some really think that there is a knife that is perfect. Maybe Santa will bring it to them.
There is "NO" perfect heat treat for all occasions, there is a heat treat for some multiple jobs that are similar and there are specific heat treats for specific jobs.
Lin's heat treat at 99% for you may be 100% for his customer's application. I guess we could all go on and on about what "WE" think but unless we are close enough to the maker and they tell you what they know, you cannot give them a grade of Pass or Fail. And if you do, it is still only your opinion. I had a little thicker skin last week but the grinder got part of it so maybe that is why the 1% number bothers me so much. This too shall pass and I will not let little things like some ones opinion set me off. Maybe too much reading isn't good for you.
Every one have a good day today and enjoy your friends and activities. It is a beautiful day here in Oklahoma and I am going to enjoy it with my family and friends. God Bless You All.
Ray Kirk - Tahlequah, Oklahoma
You All come, Ya hear.
There is "NO" perfect heat treat for all occasions, there is a heat treat for some multiple jobs that are similar and there are specific heat treats for specific jobs.
Lin's heat treat at 99% for you may be 100% for his customer's application. I guess we could all go on and on about what "WE" think but unless we are close enough to the maker and they tell you what they know, you cannot give them a grade of Pass or Fail. And if you do, it is still only your opinion. I had a little thicker skin last week but the grinder got part of it so maybe that is why the 1% number bothers me so much. This too shall pass and I will not let little things like some ones opinion set me off. Maybe too much reading isn't good for you.
Every one have a good day today and enjoy your friends and activities. It is a beautiful day here in Oklahoma and I am going to enjoy it with my family and friends. God Bless You All.
Ray Kirk - Tahlequah, Oklahoma
You All come, Ya hear.
Lin,
Are you going to be able to come to the shop tour next Saturday?
I just wanted everyone to know that there may be a world champion cutter that may be there. Whose knife outperformed everyone in the country that year. Way to go, Lin. I haven't forgotten.
Ray
Are you going to be able to come to the shop tour next Saturday?
I just wanted everyone to know that there may be a world champion cutter that may be there. Whose knife outperformed everyone in the country that year. Way to go, Lin. I haven't forgotten.
Ray
Larrin
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Yes. I see my guesses have sent everyone into an uproar, though. I sure am in trouble now.
And to someone else, no this has nothing to do with having a degree in metallurgy, it is trying to put a percentage to the number of makers that try more than one type of steel with a variety of heat treatments for every type of knife that they make, and then test them to decide on the best combination. Maybe you guys know something I don't, but I don't know many makers that have done that much work.
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Pretty interesting stuff, When I first got started with " simple steels" I quickly found out how complex they really are, it drove me to the boards reading post, books and talking with the guys at crucible ( SD ) other knife makers etc. I had access to a oven but lack the knowledge to produce steel that I was confident to sell. So the natural conclusion was to send stuff to Paul Bos.
Fast forward a few years, some three to four thousand dollars later lots of burnt up steel, my confidence and knowledge has vastly improved. I still do not know everything but that's the fun part. The ability to do ones own heat treat and hit a target hardness through the understanding of the steels and more importantly the specific tool application does not come easy but it is achievable buy more than 1%.
All the makers that I talk with strive to produce the very best product possible, this business is largely based on word of mouth and positive feedback and lots of return customers. Make a poor performing knife and it will spread like a California wildfire, but we do make mistakes from time to time. How one acts on these mistakes makes a large difference if that maker continues to due well of fail.
Even though I have the ability to HT with confidence in the shop I still send stuff out to Paul its based largely on time available and Paul does a great job. The geometry / HT is key if you want it to be correct in all aspects.
I really not sure of Larrin post but in the grand scheme of thing not sure I care
Spencer
Fast forward a few years, some three to four thousand dollars later lots of burnt up steel, my confidence and knowledge has vastly improved. I still do not know everything but that's the fun part. The ability to do ones own heat treat and hit a target hardness through the understanding of the steels and more importantly the specific tool application does not come easy but it is achievable buy more than 1%.
All the makers that I talk with strive to produce the very best product possible, this business is largely based on word of mouth and positive feedback and lots of return customers. Make a poor performing knife and it will spread like a California wildfire, but we do make mistakes from time to time. How one acts on these mistakes makes a large difference if that maker continues to due well of fail.
Even though I have the ability to HT with confidence in the shop I still send stuff out to Paul its based largely on time available and Paul does a great job. The geometry / HT is key if you want it to be correct in all aspects.
I really not sure of Larrin post but in the grand scheme of thing not sure I care
Spencer
You trying to find some one that wants to try a bunch of different steels and then run all the different heat treats on each one of them for all the applications that they may be used for and then settle on the steel that does the best job using that particular heat treat. Am I right??
I am basically a one steel person, 52100 is that steel. I selected that steel to work with because Ed Fowler said it made the finest grain size of all the carbon steels. This was later colloborated on by several other highly respected makers. I sought to develope a heat treatment for the "batch" of steel that I got. My heat treatment has changed little since talking to Dr. Batson, Al Pendrey, Charlie Ochs, Kevin Cashen, and a few others that have given seminars on heat treating. I was not the only one in the classes and some times there was standing room only. Maybe the room was too small.
You are absolutely right in that there are VERY few makers that will try to use a bunch of different steels and make them work for everything. It goes against common sense to not learn to get the ultimate performance (was trying not to use that word) from a steel that you believe is the best. I said "believe" to be the best. It may not be, but that is what "I" believe.
Larrin, as you can see, we travel in different circles and maybe the "heat and beat" crowd tends to share more info to make sure that we rise above the 1% crowd.
I reread you post again and it seems like that you think we all use every kind of steel and try to do all the different heat treats for all the different cutting chores. Not So. The reason we have our favorite steel is because we know it and have used it for testing and real world use. We do not have to reinvent the wheel every day. When a new technique of heat treat is announced, we may incorporate it into ours to see if it makes a difference. If not, it is discarded and we go on. No problems and our customers are still able to depend on our knives, for the application that they were made for.
Uproar is a small word for a reaction that is commonly called the "Mother Hen Syndrome" . I have it when it comes to demeaning a group of people that are among the most supportive of competitors in the world.
I don't mind you saying my name when you want to reply to something I said. I take full credit or responsibility for all my actions and words. Hopefull, I will not be embarrassed and get caught with my foot in my mouth due to my own ignorance.
Have a good day.
Ray Kirk
I am basically a one steel person, 52100 is that steel. I selected that steel to work with because Ed Fowler said it made the finest grain size of all the carbon steels. This was later colloborated on by several other highly respected makers. I sought to develope a heat treatment for the "batch" of steel that I got. My heat treatment has changed little since talking to Dr. Batson, Al Pendrey, Charlie Ochs, Kevin Cashen, and a few others that have given seminars on heat treating. I was not the only one in the classes and some times there was standing room only. Maybe the room was too small.
You are absolutely right in that there are VERY few makers that will try to use a bunch of different steels and make them work for everything. It goes against common sense to not learn to get the ultimate performance (was trying not to use that word) from a steel that you believe is the best. I said "believe" to be the best. It may not be, but that is what "I" believe.
Larrin, as you can see, we travel in different circles and maybe the "heat and beat" crowd tends to share more info to make sure that we rise above the 1% crowd.
I reread you post again and it seems like that you think we all use every kind of steel and try to do all the different heat treats for all the different cutting chores. Not So. The reason we have our favorite steel is because we know it and have used it for testing and real world use. We do not have to reinvent the wheel every day. When a new technique of heat treat is announced, we may incorporate it into ours to see if it makes a difference. If not, it is discarded and we go on. No problems and our customers are still able to depend on our knives, for the application that they were made for.
Uproar is a small word for a reaction that is commonly called the "Mother Hen Syndrome" . I have it when it comes to demeaning a group of people that are among the most supportive of competitors in the world.
I don't mind you saying my name when you want to reply to something I said. I take full credit or responsibility for all my actions and words. Hopefull, I will not be embarrassed and get caught with my foot in my mouth due to my own ignorance.
Have a good day.
Ray Kirk