Hello all. An introduction and a request for guidance.

I'm not sure you wouldn't be well served by a single edge blade, with a Bowie style point (ala the AK-47 bayonet!). You will get a better slash on the forward stroke (thinner blade with a better edge), and the Bowie tip will "catch" way better than a dagger type tip on the back stroke.

I might pick something like the Emerson Police Utility Knife, but more of a Bowie tip might be called for in your case, plus the PUK may be a little short??? http://www.emersonknives.com/Tact_index.html
 
Man! I was looking forward to your post Recon. I've spent the last 20 odd minutes trying to respond, then realized I was reading the same sentence over and over and over...

I gotta rack out, I'll be able to get back to you sometime tomorrow evening.

Ben:

Thanks for the links, I'll follow up when I'm able, should be no later than 18 hours past this post's time.
 
AfterTFD said:
Perhaps I worded that clumsily. I didn't mean that the thumb is stronger than all of your other fingers together. I meant that the most secure grip possible requires the use of your thumb.
Click to expand...

The method you described is 100% correct for stabbing, which is what a real knife fight is. It is never a hollywood duel.
 
Paladin Sponge said:
UDT:

Thanks for the response. However, I've done a bit of research on cold steel. They're fine for, say, my katana and wakizashi. After all, those are strictly ceremonial and I have them for the same reason that rice is my staple of choice. Cold Steel is not fine for this. In a bit more detail, here are my thoughts:
The Taipan:

300 series stainless ain't what I want to bet my life on. The blade is too long and not thick enough. I want 6 inches and 1/4" thickness ideally, but definitely not more. The handle lacks the proper shape for my purposes and I'm not sure I trust the "shot on" method. The pommel would've almost made the grade, until they put a hole into it.


Recon:

I'm picking this style knife because of how it's most likely to be used. As I'm sure one might've surmised by now, I'm an operator type, not a collector. Held in the left hand, blade out, and tip pointing towards my elbow, the first strike is disabling. The second strike is where the lethality lies, which is a stabbing motion. Hopefully, this explains why I'm looking for a knife with strong piercing properties and a double-edge.

I looked into Gerber MK II's awhile back. From what I could find, they had the same shortcoming, in my eyes, that the original sykes-fairbairn had: the thing came in too many pieces. Blade fits into guard which attaches to handle, and hopefully it won't break on impact. Further, they're collector pieces now. If I'm wrong and they do fit my requirements exactly, I'd still only get one to use if I had no other option. I'm sure there are plenty of people, especially on these forums, who'd love to have an authentic MK II and would be horrified to hear what I'm doing with it.
From what I think, 1/4" is about the best I can do for a trade-off. I'd love a razor sharp edge, but I like a lessened chance of breaking when striking bone even more. Perhaps a contoured edge would help offset it? Please, comment further if you've got the inclination.
OilMan:

It's illegal in my state, but I'm covered under an exemption.

tirod:

Thanks for the suggestion. As I'm doing this severely retroactively, check the second paragraph under my response to reconranger.


Pete:

Thanks for the suggestion. I looked at Boker but just didn't like the multiple pieces and lack of a tang. It's built for deliberate strikes and does it very well. I'm looking for something that's built for fighting and does so very well.

Bastid:

I figured hey, fixed blades, I'm looking for fixed blades, all these blokes are talking about fixed blades... at any rate, thanks for the welcome and the relocation. Fixed blades!

---END---

On a side note, I kept mentioning the finish on the blades for some of my reviews. I had originally intended to put in a little blurb about it at the end, but after I finished editing, I forgot!

At any rate, not on the original requirements list is that I'd prefer a mirror finish. Reason being, it's easier to spot flaws and such, but also for signal purposes as well (calling in medevac, communicating without the radio to allies in line of sight, etc). If I found a knife that had everything I'm looking for but didn't have a mirror finish, it's not going to get disqualified from my selection.
Click to expand...


MMmmm, ok to begin, the cold steel swords are not ceremonial, they are live carbon steel (1055) and many dojos use them for tamishgiri. They are not my choice, I like customs made by Matthew Baldwin with the evil long kissakis :D .

The Taipan is made from Aus 8, not 300 series steel. It is fine for stabbing. I had one a while ago but traded it.

Lastly, don't operators like yourself need something not shiny..ie beadblasted? You are lucky to be able to get your weapon exemptions. :thumbup: Have you had a chance to have a look a www.darkopsknives.com? They have the following knife aimed at the operator market.

11.jpg


I havent had the opportunity to get one myself yet but there was another operator, I think his name was
Gecko or something and he swore by them. Good luck in your quest though :thumbup: ...
 
Hey all, sorry for the delay. Same firing order as before, responding from most recent and on down the line.

Irezumi:

Thanks for the info on Cold Steel. Glad to know I can whack away at a rolled up mat with this thing. You got me on the AUS 8. The bad part is I knew that and as soon as I read your post, I recalled reading about it. I'd prefer a mirror finish on my blade. If I find the need to darken it up for the sake of light-discipline, a can of spraypaint isn't going to break me.

I've looked at the darkops knives. They're decent, but not what I'm looking for. The knives they make are good, don't get me wrong, but I prefer purity of purpose in my choice of a fighting knife. I've got multi-tools, auto-folders, and the like for handling the functions that the dark-ops knives are pressed to perform.

Heh, my quest? It is turning into a bit of a quest, isn't it. I didn't think it would be such an involved process trying to find something like this.

Esav Benyamin:

The Kershaw looked interesting. The only part I have concern about is the handle, where it meets the guard. Looks flimsy.

The Boker M3 Trench Knife was the most suitable out of the ones shown. I'd prefer if the reverse edge went all the way down to the hilt, but I could work with something like that. Thanks for the link.

I didn't like the SOG Daggerts. Some decent designs, but then they went and messed up the blade with some squiggly cuts. Of course, I'm just nit-picking.

Again, thanks for the links. Some of those I'm considering for a stand in until I get what I'm looking for.

Reconranger:

Hrmmm, maybe I could put a bayonet on my pistol. That would be all kinds of awesome.

I'd prefer a double-edge for knife-fighting. It simplifies my hand movements as the blade is always facing the enemy. On the second strike, if I miss, get hemmed up, or blocked, I'm not in such a position of disadvantage that a single-edged knife would be. When I pierce with it, both sides of the blade will slice. I know arteries are small targets, but that reverse-edge might make the difference. If I choose to execute a submission hold via the knife edge on my second strike, I can. A single-edged knife cannot do this without difficulty.

Based on my current knowledge and experience, a double-edged knife would best serve my needs for a melee range encounter. I could be wrong, and the catching on the cross strike was something I hadn't considered. I'll put some more thought into it and talk with some people I know.

As an aside, the craftsman at andersenforge.com contacted me. I might see if I can't work something out with him.
 
Two words answer your quest, Ranger Knives. Get with Justin and have him fabricate what you want and I'll bet you'll spend less than 150 bucks and it'll be to your specifications and finished rapidly. Look at his gallery on the other forum and you'll be AMAZED.
 
Don't think I've seen this one suggested yet so I will, look at the Brend Combat Dagger from Protech; www.protechknives.com Bear in mind the prices you see are MSRP and are cheaper online. You can also find other combo's of handle materials. Look at www.pvk.com as he has a few.
 
Cutter:

Thanks for the links. I looked at the Brend, which was decent. I didn't so much like how the blades were concave ground (is that the word?). Very artistic, and they're crafted in such a way that it appears they'd hold a sharper edge easily compared to a more pedestrian design though I'm not sure how they'd stand up to impact. My biggest concern is the handle. It lacks the kind of grip shape I need and in general the grips do not appear aggressive enough. Otherwise, it would've done a fairly good job I think.

I looked at the PVK knives and none of them quite struck my fancy.

Chillipep:

I'm making contact with Justin, hopefully I can get something worked out :D

---END---

Thanks everyone for your help. I think at this point, I've gathered enough intel to execute.
 
Paladin Sponge said:
I've been looking for a fighting blade for a few weeks.
Click to expand...

My first question is why? As someone else said, back in the day, (when they were a new product) a Gerber MK II was my choice. Back then I knew nothing and had very limited first hand experience of knives and fighting with them. Loosely summed up I found the occasions suitable for the MK II to be few. A silenced .32 or .380 HP to the back of the skull from 30 feet works much better for dispatching sentries. Safer too. [A little clatter when their gear hits the ground, but you deal with that with a knife too.] That is a really rare scenario even in the Spec Ops world.

If you are not in that kind of scenario then why on earth would you want to limit yourself to a double edged dagger? I sent my MK II home within a month and replaced it with an old Navy Pal. I still have the MK II. It has joined the old 1917 Bolo in the well made, but almost useless knife box.

I don't wish to cast doubts, however you have said nothing beyond the scenario stating "I'm an operator type," but then you also speak of "darts" and I presume you mean throwing darts, and the whole real world scenario just kinds of falls apart. I can think of few things more likely to result in a burst of AK fire than throwing a dart at a sentry. It is almost right up there with throwing a baseball sized rock and hoping his/her helmet won't work.

There are legal considerations to posting on the world wide web one wants a knife for fighting. Hopefully you are actual active duty military assigned to a front line unit which does night time patrols and recon by foot. If however you are merely anticipating sentry duty, doing police work, SWAT, logistics or something similar, then a single edged blade will be much more useful. Remember you have to carry the durn thing with you. That little bit of weight does make a difference by the end of the week or three, of 18 hour days.

I, having been present at, or in the immediate aftermath of several, generally try to avoid knife fights like a plague flea. Only in Hollywood do two guys square off with a knife and one walks away with only a superficial scratch. More usually, in the real world, one person is dying while the other one is merely maimed for life or dying just a little bit slower.

If however you really are serious, and legitimate, then I strongly suggest taking some Escrimo and Silat lessons so as to greatly increase your odds of surviving what will probably (and hopefully) be a once in your lifetime experience.
 
I really think you should check out Dark-ops full line of blades as they specialize in "Covert-deanimation" type knives. Also the handles, oh the handles...just listen to what is said about that: "high tensile aramid composite that is impervious to everything from aviation fuel to Al Qaeda body fluids."

Sounds exactly like what you need. We all know what a mess a knife can be with bodily fluids all over it!
 
Paladin:

The EK knives look like very effective combat/fighting knifes. I own one with a para cord wrapped handle, but they are available with handle scales as well. Not a lot of parts used to construct this knife. Full tang, double edged, decent hilt, and handle scales screwed in place. The pommel does have a hole for a lanyard, but I believe it will serve its purpose.

http://www.ekknife.com/knives.html

I agree with the formal instruction on knife fighting.:thumbup: It is a must for anyone who would ever think of using a knife for defensive purposes. I attended a seminar on Sayoc Kali instructed by Guru Harley of Warrior's Way Martial Arts Academy. It was an eye opener. If you get to the point were you must use your knife defensively, this is good stuff to know otherwise
RUN! ;)

Semper Fi
 
Zombie:

Wow, now that's the kind of thing I'm looking for. Reasonably priced and a decent fit for my specifications. Really, thanks for the link. In my research, I hadn't found them. As there's quite a few knives on that site, it'll take me a bit to go through. I'll post back with an update after I make some progress.

Even if someone knew what they were doing, I'd still recommend running.

Dreamhawk:

I've checked out the dark-ops line, and took another look at 'em after your reading your post. From what I've heard, they make excellent knives. My problem with them is there appears to be a compromise between utility and fighting. I'm not looking for another utility blade. I've got one, it serves me well, and at this time I'm not looking to upgrade it. If the time comes for me to trade up, I know where to look.

That said, they do have some nice, very aggressive grips. Which come in handy as blood and other fluids tend to make things rather slick. Just, not what I'm looking for right now.

Superc:

Why not? A thousand dollar side arm, a 12 gauge in CQB, or a fully automatic M-4 are excellent for their intended usage. Meaning, ranged combat. When the distance drops to hand to gland, their utility suffers. I wanted something that covers the area where firearms are at their weakest. A knife seems to be my most viable option. I'm a good ground fighter and excel at knee and elbow range, but really, I'd much rather end it with a blade than spend three minutes beating another man to death with my bare hands.

I'd prefer to use firearms. When I get hemmed up, I do my best to disengage and open up with ranged weapons. The knife is literally my last line of defense. If someone is thirty feet away and needs killing, I'll use a gun. If they're on top of me and I'm in imminent danger of dying, I'll use a knife.

I'm looking for a double-edged blade because of the purpose of the knife. I have single-edged blades. I like them. I use them to open boxes, letters, MRE's, etc. In fact, I would've much prefered a tanto style blade for aesthetic and utilitarian reasons. But I much prefer double-edges for fighting. I find them easier, faster, and more alive in my hand.

I can understand how you, and others, would find my credibility lacking. That's part of why I was so hesitant to register and post here, or anywhere else for that matter. But the information I was looking for was hard to come by. By the way, the "darts" are really throwing knives. My buddy calls 'em darts. Different terminology, guess I should've been more specific. Further, they're just for play. A hobby, really. They keep my hands busy.

Legally, I'm good to go. JAG says go for it, my chain of command is supportive, I'm exempt under state law for possession of dangerous weapons, and of course, USC, UCMJ, CFR's, DoD, and army regs authorize me to carry.

Weight isn't going to be a problem. I'm already carrying something similar. Swapping knives isn't going to significantly affect my load-out. I'm just trading up for something closer to what I'd really want as opposed to what I could get because I needed it and needed it now.

I agree with your sentiment on knife fights. Knives are scary and I'd much rather be shot if given the option. Wisdom conquers fear. Failure to prepare is preparing to fail. You already know all the aphorisms, so I'll stop there.

Training never stops. Somewhere there's a bullet with my name on it. Rather than waiting, I'll do what I can to get ready.

At any rate, thanks for the post. It's obvious you put quite a bit of thought into it and I'm always looking for criticism. Please, feel free to rebut my opinions. They're merely ideas and are subject to change. If I can find a better way, I try to adopt it.
 
Not much to disagree about. You used the correct buzz letters. JAG = Navy. Only a precious few in that organization need rifles, etc. Then there are Marines. Occasionally they get to see firearms too. :)

That being said, IMO, yes the weight of the knife is the same. However, carrying a double edged full size knife on missions, assignments, whatever, means you either have a second knife tucked away somewhere, or "open boxes, letters, MRE's, etc" (add cutting paracord and rope) with your teeth or a friends knife as the double edged knife is just kind of awkward to do some knife tasks with. If I was wearing my MK II or a similar double edge in todays world, I would probably have a lightweight folder tucked away somewhere for the everyday knife tasks (Leek or something similar on the weak hand side) although I would give a lot of thought to a Leatherman type as a possible alternate as it was amazing the number of times I suddenly wanted a screw driver or a file when none was around.

Here is the thing about knives. Slashes disable (hands, legs, eyes, etc.) accompanied by potentially massive immediate blood loss, stabs however induce shock and organ failure but often little external blood loss by comparison. Most double edge blades are really lousy for slashing due to the lack of a cutting belly. While this doesn't really matter if you are the only one with a knife, it becomes real important if you are struggling with someone who both knows how to use it and also has a blade. The first few seconds of the fight will be spent blocking and trying to disable the opponent enough to get past their blocking. I can slash, sort of, with my MK II Gerber, but not nearly as well as I can with my MK2 Kabar. I can also hack with the Kabar, which the MK II is laughable at. [The best slash with the Gerber begins with the saw teeth at the back and up over the swelling at the waist of the blade. However, any part of the Kabar edge will open a really nice slice.] There is a school of thought (improvisation really) that you block with your off arm while getting closer for your doing own damage with your blade. This is where the 'winner' gets maimed for life. One or two good slashes from a sharp blade can durn near sever that arm and otherwise make it useless for a very long time. [Allegedly the Kukri type (and also the bolo), which is excellent at hacking and slashing, but kind of lousy for stabbing, will actually sever a hand or an elbow if things go right.] Other schools of thought involve a good baton or a second knife (recall that Leek or Buck in the left side pouch?) in the off hand to do the blocking with. A person with a tire iron (or piece of pipe or similar) in one hand and a Kbar in the other is someone to avoid as they can give someone a really bad day. Both of the fighters are doing block slash block slash etc. until something gets through. Face, leg, arm, whatever presents. They are also kicking. Done right, the stab may never even be needed. Kabars and other clip points excel at this sort of thing as the pull back stroke offers both a slash and a stab. [Touch up that false edge if you have one, not to razor, but not dull either.] If I had to do a knife fight, I would kind of hope the other guy has only a stabbing knife while I had a fair size, do all, bowie type. I think it would seriously up my chances of staggering away.

Give really serious thought to looking into Escrimo. While they practice with sticks, it is about knife fighting. Silat also offers some tricks worth learning.
 
Legally, I'm good to go. JAG says go for it, my chain of command is supportive, I'm exempt under state law for possession of dangerous weapons, and of course, USC, UCMJ, CFR's, DoD, and army regs authorize me to carry.
Click to expand...

That's interesting. A relative is in 3rd group SF and off post, off duty he has to follow all state and federal laws re; weapons. On duty, under orders things are different but off duty he's the same as a civilian and needs to get the same pistol permits, and follow the same laws as everybody else. Companies will sell him switchblades, but he can't even carry them off duty any more than a regular civilian. It's the same for military police BTW.

What's in 2012? Joe
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top