Helm Forge tomahawk vs. Winkler RnD/Tracker Dan Graymatter

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VolundoftheForge

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Jan 3, 2012
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Hey guys, so I currently own a Helm Forge Wrecker 'hawk, the 12" model in OD with the pry spike and sharpened beard, and lately have been considering jumping up for a higher end 'hawk. The grip and weight distribution for the Wrecker just isn't for me, and I feel the spike is a bit too exposed for my liking. Anyways, I am intrigued by both the Tracker Dan and Winkler tomahawks, and was curious if anyone who owns both could comment on the benefits of these two higher end tomahawks over the Wrecker. Do you think it's worth spending the extra $800 or so for a new one, or possibly even selling my current 'hawk to fund?

Thanks for your thoughts guys. Obviously it's hard to beat a Winkler or Graymatter hawk, but I just wanted an idea of what the extra cash is buying me and if you can really feel the difference. Thanks!
 
I have 2 winkler axes and I love them, neither were over 600. Both get used and carried. I have taken a tour of Daniel's shop and he is a great guy. He goes above and beyond. Just remember, these axes are tools. Buy the one you think fits your need the best. I hope that helps. DSC_0017.jpg
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Presuming you mean the Winkler/Sayoc RnD, since it's comparable to the Greymatter, I don't think it's fair to compare it to the Helm hawk. Both the RnD and the Greymatter are very special beasts, where as the Wrecker is a little more general purpose. Unless you are studying Kali, specifically the Sayoc style, the use of the other 2 will be fairly limited. They are not utility hawks. They are designed from the ground up for the purpose of causing harm, specifically to a human body. If that's something you want or need, then you would be very well served with either and the dedication to learning to use them effectively. Otherwise, they are still pretty :)
 
Well, though it's particularly unlikely in my current state of living, I was interested in picking up an RnD or Graymatter for my camping pack, as well as looking into getting into Sayoc Kali. I feel that the RnD or Graymatter offer a larger swell at the end of the handle to reduce slippage during heavy swings, and the recessed spike helps with both combative and chopping usages. I would get the front-spiked model which does limit utilitarian effectiveness, but I feel it adds a tremendous deal to the breaching and combative applications.
 
VolundoftheForge said:
Well, though it's particularly unlikely in my current state of living, I was interested in picking up an RnD or Graymatter for my camping pack, as well as looking into getting into Sayoc Kali. I feel that the RnD or Graymatter offer a larger swell at the end of the handle to reduce slippage during heavy swings, and the recessed spike helps with both combative and chopping usages. I would get the front-spiked model which does limit utilitarian effectiveness, but I feel it adds a tremendous deal to the breaching and combative applications.
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I own a helm wrecker, I have also been studying FMA and Silat for almost 10 years. Both the winkler and the tracker dan hawks are great hawks, however, neither is meant for bushcraft or breaching. They are purely meant for combat. Even at that without serious training a hawk like that is much more of a liability to yourself than to an opponent. But if you are looking for a serious fighting hawk then you can't go wrong with either. But don't be fooled into thinking either of these are for bushcraft or breaching.
 
Hopefully not to derail the thread...but is the Stealth Hawk a little more versatile? I'm looking hard at that and the RnD sub compact...
 
shaw11b said:
I own a helm wrecker, I have also been studying FMA and Silat for almost 10 years. Both the winkler and the tracker dan hawks are great hawks, however, neither is meant for bushcraft or breaching. They are purely meant for combat. Even at that without serious training a hawk like that is much more of a liability to yourself than to an opponent. But if you are looking for a serious fighting hawk then you can't go wrong with either. But don't be fooled into thinking either of these are for bushcraft or breaching.
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I understand what you're saying, however I'd have to slightly disagree on the functionality of the RnD. Although it is definitely not the most multi-purpose of his line, the added thickness to the head (1/2" over 1/4"), I would have to assume this thickness would aid in woodchopping and breaching, though admittedly the thicker edge would make it less useful for actual bushcraft.
 
As far as value goes I don't think there is a better value in a full tang hawk than the ones James Helm is making right now. Also the benefit of him being a custom maker is I am sure if you talk with him he would modify one of his designs to meet your exact needs.
 
PatrickKnight said:
As far as value goes I don't think there is a better value in a full tang hawk than the ones James Helm is making right now. Also the benefit of him being a custom maker is I am sure if you talk with him he would modify one of his designs to meet your exact needs.
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I believe his Helm Grind line is all pre-cut, so modifying the design would probably add a good bit of cost since he'd have to make it by hand. Also, I have the 12" model and am just not a fan of the balancing, and because of the handle design it feels like it's going to come out of my hand if I swing it with significant force.
 
The best thing, if you're contemplating a new 'hawk and can make the trip, would be to go to the Blade Show June 6-8. Winkler, RMJ, myself, and a number of other 'hawk makers will be there and you can handle and compare in person. There's only so much a picture online can tell you, and especially if laying down a lot of money on a piece of equipment, it might be worth the trip to see. Everyone's taste differs, and what is comfortable to one person may not be to another.

That, and the show is frickin' awesome. :) I've had a table there two years so far, and have been blown away by the sheer amount of awesome blades under one roof. Tremendous amounts of talent on display.

I'd like to point out something that I was planning on showing in video format sometime in the future, that the flared tube rivets on my 'hawks allow the use of several different kinds of lanyards for extra retention. A couple I have in mind would be a loop running through the top rivet to the bottom along the sides, where you can slip your hand under one side and your fingers under another. Another setup would be a length of cord tied off at the top rivet and run down the front of the handle, then tied off at the bottom, so that it slips over your fingers in use. Might not solve the issue for you, but they're a couple of possible options.

I'll see if I can get pics of such setups sometime this week.
 
Oh yeah, my 'hawk blanks are waterjet cut using CAD files, just like Winkler's and some of the RMJs. So a new design requires a new CAD file, which does cost, and cutting a single version may not be feasible. The cost effectiveness of waterjetting really comes into play in volume work. There's a minimum cost just to put a piece of steel on the table, even if you only cut one item.
 
I like the idea of that top lanyard hole. I took the lanyard off my RMJ when carrying on the belt because it snags alot in the "bush". I assume when running the top hole it doesn't extend beyond the handle when hanging vertically.
I'll be checking out the blade show.
 
I would also just like to say that what I've stated above are based solely off what I personally would like in a pure-fighting tomahawk, and not a reflection on the quality or character of Storm Crow. He is a wonderful guy to work with and for the price his tomahawks are 100% worth the money. In fact, I will likely bring mine camping over the next few weeks for some proper usage and see how my opinions lay after that.
 
VolundoftheForge, have you considered the RMJ Kestrel/ or Kestrel Feather??? They are a perfect combo between battle and utility 'hawk.

If you're concerned about the handle, regarding electrical issues, etc...shrink wrap the grip! I'm currently in the process of ordering one myself :D
 
The Greymatter is a little lighter and a little more lively in the hand. The RnD hawk is by no means heavy, and is extremely dextrous. It has slightly more weight towards the head which is both functional and feels good. I prefer the RND Hawk. Not to disparage Dan's work in the slightest - quite the opposite - but I think in terms of craftsmanship Daniel Winkler has the obvious advantage with 25 years of full time knifemaking.

It's hard to fully appreciate just how well the RND Hawk is designed without handling one.
 
brindlebutcher said:
VolundoftheForge, have you considered the RMJ Kestrel/ or Kestrel Feather??? They are a perfect combo between battle and utility 'hawk.

If you're concerned about the handle, regarding electrical issues, etc...shrink wrap the grip! I'm currently in the process of ordering one myself :D
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Honestly, outside of a pure fighting hawk, I think the Wrecker that Storm Crow puts out is one of the best designs out there. Really, the steel used is identical to that of RMJ and the design works very similarly to their scaled models, so I don't personally see the benefit.
 
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