Help dating a Boker USA fixed blade please - SOLVED!!!

SAK Guy

SAK Guy

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Jul 2, 2013
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Just got this Boker 155 Bird and Trout with orig sheath. I'm guessing 70's but can anyone date it from the tang stamp.

Boker%20155%20BampT_zpswlshcnew.jpg


Tang stamp:
tang%20155%20sellers%20pic_zpsadrn5gjl.jpg


This pattern was the inspiration for the Curtis LeMay driven USAF SAC Pilot's Survival Knife. They were evaluated for issue in the early 50's.

Some background info:
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/for...arce-usaf-blade-the-boker-155-survival-knife/
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/149809-boker-155-survival-knife/
http://iknifecollector.com/forum/topics/can-t-find-this-boker-knife-listed-anywhere

Thank you!
 
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Thanks for the vote of confidence Mark, Boker is one of the toughest brands of knives to accurately date, there is no rock solid etched in stone book of tang stamps and markings there are over 40+ different tang stamps and any dating information available is compressed into around 27 of the most significant stamps used, and then one has to take into consideration all the different branches of Boker and then with Boker USA it changed hands many times that tang stamps for the USA brands are not accurate and the shield is a better way to date, also Boker reintroduces old tang stamps for nostalgia ( or to confuse:-). So with Boker sometimes you need to figure out what you don't have to help you get closer to what you do have. So this particular knife, is a civilian model not military, can tell this by the sheath and the lack of lanyard hole. What I'm really baffled at is the knife is not stamped? There should be at the base of the blade a Boker stamp on the left side, and 155 stamped on the right side, to me from the pictures it looks like someone used a engraving pen, you can really see it in the USA and also a sort of slip of the pen to the left of the U? I know the military ones are collectable, the sheath and lack of lanyard seem correct for the civilian market but the markings seem odd to me? Not really sure if someone tried to pull one over on someone or maybe a employee took the materials and made the knife at home? I really have no idea the knife looks right but the odd engraving and lack of stamps seems to be questionable? I thought maybe someone worked a Boker plus model but the Boker Plus reissue models have a lanyard hole. I guess it could be some sort of commemorative type knife they had engraved for display or as a reward? They did a good job on the logo put that USA seems a bit shaky. I think this might be a employee lunchbox knife? I'm sure it's 100% Boker, I think an employee did a bit of slight of hand and then did some garage engraving.Sorry I really couldn't help, you can try contacting Boker I'm not sure who's over there now, sadly Terry Trahan passed away not to long ago.


Pete
 
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Thanks Pete! I figured it was the 155 Bird and Trout (not the issue one) but the stamp puzzled me too....

Some of my research:

I think it's factory mark and here's why (this occurred to me late late last night) the electro pen stamp, in one aspect, matches the military examples 50's era tang. Notice the larger "B" and "R" on each end of "BOKER".

Issue Tang
Military%20era%20stamp_zps9pv30wuz.jpg


Mine
Etch_zps97qppisz.jpg


Guide
guide_zpsvb9o8izn.jpg




Evaluation models
"Frank Trzaska relates how several knife models were evaluated for this role, including the famous Randall Model 14. All were rejected in favor of the little Boker. Some 300 of the Bokers were tested in the early 1950s at the USAF Survival School located at Stead AFB in Nevada."
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/for...arce-usaf-blade-the-boker-155-survival-knife/

Maybe a rushed test sample (from reg production) might be marked in such a hasty fashion and then based on the testing, the issue model with altered finger guard, lanyard drilled pommel and deep pockect sheath was born. Just brainstorming.


Here, a collector shows both military era versions (civilian and issue) of the 155. The civilian model has a sheath like mine, no drilled pommel but the wider military style fingerguard. More puzzle pieces....suggests that mine is either pre or post military issue era.

Boker155BTUSAFE1SurvivalKnife2.jpg

http://iknifecollector.com/group/knifepatterns/forum/topics/bird-trout-knives

This poster has one similar to mine but with a standard stamp and pakkawood handle...
http://iknifecollector.com/forum/topics/can-t-find-this-boker-knife-listed-anywhere

Another view of mine:
view2_zpsqihbrkjf.jpg


The knife appears pretty much unused with the factory edge. Leather-wise, it matches the old 60's-70's Schrade hunters we used to have before the fire.

I always seem to end up with the weird stuff....if someone else had an electro stamped Boker of any kind that might get us closer to a date. I'm going to try and contact Frank Trzaska, the guy that introduced the 155 military model to collectors in his 2002 Knife World article.

Thanks again Pete! :thumbup:
 
Here's another knife on the Bay with that style etch....so I guess it's a factory stamp.

Seller's pic
$_57.JPG


and a blurry Boker 153 (next size down from the 155) with the same etch..
$_57.JPG
 
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I don't think it's a stamp they aren't uniform to each other, look at the B in Brand on the sellers picture above, it looks just like the engraving pen was dragged from the tree bottom to the B, I wonder if these were pre production salesman models? I don't know enough about their fixed blade line, I've had good luck when Terry ran things in customer service, a email was usually answered within a hour, you should contact them, sort of odd to have some poor guy sitting there trying to mark knives, did a better job than what I've done marking my tools :-)

Pete
 
I used that term "stamp" too loosely...it's an electro pen...I'll shoot them an email this afternoon.

Thanks Pete!
 
Cool let us know what you find, I picture some poor guy with thick glasses mumbling to himself as he does one knife after another and all the other employees mocking him(-: he eventually goes mad and they find him in a corner rocking back-and-forth mumbling Boker Tree Brand USA over and over and over again:-)

Pete

 
Stich2442 said:
Cool let us know what you find, I picture some poor guy with thick glasses mumbling to himself as he does one knife after another and all the other employees mocking him(-: he eventually goes mad and they find him in a corner rocking back-and-forth mumbling Boker Tree Brand USA over and over and over again:-)

Pete

Click to expand...


LOL, they emailed back requesting pics of the knife!!! :thumbup:
 
Well, Boker emailed me back and said my email was shown to the president of the company (who has been there over 30 years) and he said Boker never marked their blades that way. Since I thought the knife was 35-40 years old, that info confirmed it is as least 30+ years old. I thanked them and attached pix of 3 Boker USA knives off ebay auctions which all had the same exact etch so we will see if that jogs someone's memory at Boker.

I already posted 2 of the examples, here's the third I had found in about 30 min of searching Ebay past auctions.

Boker%20254_zpscyihawqp.jpg



Anybody know the production dates of the Boker USA knives?
 
I've posted this before


I'm a Boker fan, I find their history and contributions to the cutlery world fascinating, vast, and very much overlooked, here's a really brief history of Boker USA, I left a lot out, but this is the express cliff notes version

Around 1837 Hermann Böker emigrated to the USA , 1857 they renamed the US firm H.Boker & Co. and set up shops in New York, Canada and Mexico, and eventually Argentina. Around 1899 Carl F. Boker purchased Valley Forge Cutlery Co., along with the Valley Forge branded knives also made knives marked H. Boker & Co's Improved Cutler, 1916 Carl F. Boker purchased Cyclops Steel Co. in Titusville Pa. ( I'm sure you all know who owns that name now) During WWII Germany supplied German troops and American Boker to US troops, the Solingen factory was destroyed by Allied bombers and the US government seized the Tree Brand trade mark took control of the trademark and ownership for 40 years, the German factory was rebuilt in the 1950s. In the 60's and 70's the company changed hands several times, J. Wiss and Sons, Coopers Group, with the New York shop shutting down around 1983 and the US production of Boker knives. In 1986 Cooper sold the Boker name and trademarks back to the German Boker firm and they started a importing company Boker USA Inc. in Denver, Colorado.

Pete
 
SAK guy, I'm guessing with all these Bokers you have found marked the way they are an employee took some things and finished them up himself and trying to make some coin, do you know if the items you found marked the way they are are being sold by the same seller? Sort of like all the Schrade sharp fingers you run across that someone else made handles for and sells them.

Pete
 
Different sellers. I'll look back at the ebay searches but there are other examples of Boker knives from 50's and 60's with no tang stamp. Just found this one....different style etch, but applied to the blade and not the tang. Looks like an improved (no electro pen) technique over the older ones. Are all real Boker USA knives supposed to be tang stamped?

Seller's pic of a circa 50's-60's Boker USA 162
Boker%20162_zpsenuukv9r.jpg


It has the same sheath design as my 155, so is this an employee take home or evidence of a improved blade marked (vs tang stamp) Boker USA? I'm stumped. :confused:
 
The etch on yours and the ones you found on eBay are really crude, I have Bokers from early 1900's and they are deep professional stamps, and up until a few years ago on their traditional pocket knives each blade on multi blades knives were stamped

Here's page 12 of the 1972-73 catalog showing the knife you posted recently
 
I know nothing about SAK Guy's knife in particular, or about Boker knives in general; I'm not even interested in fixed blade knives. But I DO love a mystery, and for that reason, I think this is one of the most interesting of the current threads! Thanks for your detective work, SAK Guy and Pete; I hope you eventually solve it (and I'll be reading until the end)! :thumbup::thumbup:

- GT
 
Thanks Pete! It's a nice knife...I wish I had bought it. This is such an interesting subject. Nearly all the Bokers in my collection are all from the Cooper Tool era so I have very little background in other eras.

Your suggestion of pre production salesman samples interests me as well. My knife has tiny tiny surface pin holes on the back side yet the finish is absolutely mirror perfect on the etch side. These are imperfections that weren't polished out so if...and I said if, this was a salesman's sample, it would make sense to spend more time on the etch side that would be examined closer than the back. :confused:

Here's a close up of the tiny imperfections: (my camera is very limited on close ups)

pinpoints_zps4abr8rup.jpg


These imperfections run the entire length of the unground portions of the back blade. I've looked at the front (etch) side with an 8X magnifier and there are no imperfections like this. Makes me think the back side is "partially finished".

What do you think Pete?
 
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