Help me go plungeless

[Varga Knives]

I am trying my first crack at some kitchen knives and came to a crossroads. I bought a 48" x 2" piece of stock so I figured I might as well make four of them to increase the odds of one coming out right . As luck would have it I managed to eek out 4 12" knives and one ten inch because I was able to overlap the handles in layout.

They are all going to be FFG and full tang. I picked the small one to grind the bevel on hoping the nagging question I had would somehow resolve itself. It didn't. How do I lose the plunge? As the small knife lies right now there is no ricasso and the bevel is basically straight up from the heel. I was thinking to either leave the plunge there in front of the handle and have the scales start back from that about 1/4" or blend the plunge in. I think either would look like crap and I know there has to be a better way.

I remembered a thread some time back and knew it is done but I am not sure the best way to go. This is a quote from "LRB" in that thread and I think he explains it very well...

"I make early type knives with a gentle convex grind, and most often no plunge, and a blade that has a heel below the grip level. I never carry the grind above the grip level in that zone immediately forward of the grip, but grind it as a gentle blend in a 45° angle from the heel aimed forward into the spine. This ends up with a flat forward of the grip as a continuation of the flat tang, but is not noticable unless a straight edge is layed upon it, if done right. A tapered tang from the heel back takes a little more careful blending, but can be done."

Just wondering if this is the only option or if there are other ways to deal with an plungeless, FFG, full tang?

Thanks in advance!!

 

[james terrio]

Take the full flat grind all the way back through the tang. Be sure to drill it while it's still parallel. I occasionally do smaller knives that way, as well. For example:

(these pics are from two different knives but they were built the same way)

 

[chavez556]

What type of steel, thickness and how are you going to heat treat?

I was out my plunges with a file.

 

[Varga Knives]

Thanks James.

Okay, so esentially the handle will have a slight bevel to it all the way back? Off the top of my head I think I own some kitchen knives like that.

Chavez - .10, AEB-L. Peter's for HT.

ETA: Works for me James!

 

[james terrio]

Okay, so esentially the handle will have a slight bevel to it all the way back? Off the top of my head I think I own some kitchen knives like that...

Yup! Kitchen knives have been made that way for a long time.

There's even at least one vendor that sells barstock already rolled/ground to a tapered cross-section... Fisher Knives. Pic from his website:

I'd like to see more carbon than .43% but that's another discussion...

 

[Varga Knives]

There's even at least one vendor that sells barstock already rolled/ground to a tapered cross-section... Fisher Knives. Pic from his website:

HUh, I haven't seen that before, that's pretty neat. I suppose you would need to make up a jig for drilling the tang but could be well worth it. I have to check out their selection.

ETA: Wish they had more options than 420 and ten foot lengths!

 

[chavez556]

Are you grinding them pre heat treat? I usually grind all of my knives 1/8" or less post heat treat to avoid warping.

Btw Aeb-l is a great steel for the kitchen. I talked to Chuck at Aks and he says the most used knife in his kitchen is made with Aeb-l hardened to 62.

 

[Varga Knives]

I was on the fence but I think I am safe to grind off to a fairly thick edge prior to HT. .10 still has quite a bit of material and Peter's is top notch.

 

[james terrio]

ETA: Wish they had more options than 420 and ten foot lengths!

Well, ten feet goes quick when you start making a batch of knives. But yeah, that guy claims it's "almost exactly like 12C27", but that's simply not true... according to his HT info it has only .43% carbon. I would very much prefer real 12C27 or better yet, AEB-L (both have roughly .60% percent carbon, which is plenty to get them to a high hardness but not so much that it forms a ton of carbides with the chrome... leaving a very fine structure and almost all the chrome "free" to add corrosion resistance.)

I only posted that link/pic as an example of geometry, so... let's leave it at that. *shrug*

Btw Aeb-l is a great steel for the kitchen. I talked to Chuck at Aks and he says the most used knife in his kitchen is made with Aeb-l hardened to 62.

Right on. Chuck is the guy that turned me on to AEB-L/13C26 and helped me understand what makes it work so well.

I was on the fence but I think I am safe to grind off to a fairly thick edge prior to HT. .10 still has quite a bit of material and Peter's is top notch.

Peters' does all my HT. I routinely grind blades to .010" or less at the edge prior to HT, and they come back in excellent condition. :thumbup:

 

[Varga Knives]

Sound judgement James and I'm not even tempted to try 420. Four feet went quick so ten wouldn't be too much more as long as it doesn't come in one long piece. Yikes!

Follow up question. I always considered it an area of debate but where do you (or anyone else) measure edge thickness from? I have heard to measure right at the edge but I have also heard 1mm up.

 

[james terrio]

Pre-HT, I measure the edge at the very edge.

Post-HT and when the blade is fully finished and sharpened, I measure "behind the edge" wherever the final cutting bevel meets the overall bevel, and describe it as such in sales threads/info. That may be .5mm or 4mm, depending on the style of knife. (Thin kitchen knives may have barely a micro-bevel; thicker tactical knives will obviously have a much more noticeable edge "grind".)

 

[Brian.Evans]

Good info here. Butch Harner helped me understand plungeless designs a bit more a few days ago. This way is what Stacey told me to do. I have 10 kitchen knives laid out on steel already. You aren't kidding about 4 feet going fast!

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Just for info, I bought a bunch of the tapered 420 from them when they started selling it about 10 years ago. I made about 30 fast and simple kitchen knives and utility fishing knives from it. Sure, it didn't get to Rc62, but the edge was easily sharpened, and these type knives get sharpened at almost every use, anyway. I never re-ordered it, but the cost per knife was crazy low.

I now use CPM-S35VN and grind most of the knives after hardening. On some blades I taper the blade and then harden, still doing the bevels after hardening.