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We always called that choke cherry. A friend of mine has carved some really nice wooden spoons, bowls and other utensils from them and says its a good wood for that purpose.
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Help me identify this hateful tree.
- Thread starter jblyttle
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Thought this might have some interest.
Janka hardness test values:
Lignumvitae 4500
Osage orange 2400
Hickory 1820
Locust, black 1700
Maple, sugar 1450
Oak, white 1333
Ash, white 1320
Oak, red 1290
Walnut, black 1010
Cherry, black 950
Elm 769
Fir, Douglas 660
Poplar 432
Balsa 100
This is a subset of a listing found here: http://ejmas.com/tin/2009tin/tinart_goldstein_0904.html
I included Lignumvitae and Balsa because they were the hardest and softest respectively from the list. The others I thought would be well known.
Janka hardness test values:
Lignumvitae 4500
Osage orange 2400
Hickory 1820
Locust, black 1700
Maple, sugar 1450
Oak, white 1333
Ash, white 1320
Oak, red 1290
Walnut, black 1010
Cherry, black 950
Elm 769
Fir, Douglas 660
Poplar 432
Balsa 100
This is a subset of a listing found here: http://ejmas.com/tin/2009tin/tinart_goldstein_0904.html
I included Lignumvitae and Balsa because they were the hardest and softest respectively from the list. The others I thought would be well known.
I don't have much problem agreeing with that list except for "Elm". That stuff is hard/heavy and tough as 'all get out' and at very least on par with Oak/Maple/Hickory. And Ash (whether White or Black) is softer by 'a long shot' than any Elm I've ever tangled with.
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That's what I have alway heard and have so far avoided it.
I can't vouch for the accuracy of the list and I've seen different numbers for the "same" wood from different sources. The Wood Database (http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/american-elm/) states the Janka hardness for Elm is 830. A slightly higher number, but not by a lot. They also say Elm "Grain is interlocked (making it very resistant to splitting). With a somewhat coarse, uneven texture." I believe Elm was used for wooden wagon wheel hubs because of its grain.
Square_peg
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Yes, it's the interlocking grain that makes Elm hard to split. But I've definitely found specimens that rival oak for hardness. But we see a fair amount of Chinese Elm out west and it is markedly harder than American Elm.
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So thinking back the axes did slice into the wood fairly easily, it was probably a combination of compromised edges and tougher heartwood that made it seem more difficult. So I'm thinking that it was the axes and not the tree, so I am back to the edges. Could anyone comment on the pics that I posted? They look properly shaped to my relatively inexperienced eye, there may be something obvious that I'm doing wrong. My first thought is that there is no real secondary bevel?
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You might be on to something. It was only the main trunk that was tough, limbing was easy and sectioning wasn't so bad. To get it to fall over the fence without crushing it I had to cut is at about 4.5' so I couldn't cut with a downward angle. I had to angle up and straight in.
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That's what I have alway heard and have so far avoided it.
I can't vouch for the accuracy of the list and I've seen different numbers for the "same" wood from different sources. The Wood Database (http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/american-elm/) states the Janka hardness for Elm is 830. A slightly higher number, but not by a lot. They also say Elm "Grain is interlocked (making it very resistant to splitting). With a somewhat coarse, uneven texture." I believe Elm was used for wooden wagon wheel hubs because of its grain.
The rating can vary by species of genus "x" and the water content of the piece tested. Here's a list of elm ratings by species. These figures were derived from pieces at 12% moisture content.
Species ------------ Scientific name --------Newtons ---- Janka
elder, blue ------- Sambucus cerulea ----- 3.7 ----------- 840
elm, american --- Ulmus americana ------- 3.7 ----------- 830
elm, cedar ------- Ulmus crassifolia -------- 5.9 ---------- 1320
elm, rock -------- Ulmus thomasii ---------- 5.9 ---------- 1320
elm, slippery ---- Ulmus rubra ------------- 3.8 ----------- 860
elm, winged ----- Ulmus alata ------------- 6.8 ----------- 1540
Hopefully my spacing stays
edit - had to add dashes to keep it aligned
Last edited:
Square_peg
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So thinking back the axes did slice into the wood fairly easily, it was probably a combination of compromised edges and tougher heartwood that made it seem more difficult. So I'm thinking that it was the axes and not the tree, so I am back to the edges. Could anyone comment on the pics that I posted? They look properly shaped to my relatively inexperienced eye, there may be something obvious that I'm doing wrong. My first thought is that there is no real secondary bevel?
Your first pic looks like a heat treat issue. The second one looks like a clean break from hitting a hard knot or something.
Compare to this photo from Warren/Sager:
One thing I've learned is that the toe and heel are especially vulnerable to damage because they have less support to one side. A few years back I started changing my bevel angles at the toe and heel to protect against this. Leave the toe and heel a little fat compared to the rest of the bit. This will also save wear.
Regarding a secondary bevel, I don't do primary/secondary beveling on axes. I roll the bevel into the edge in one continuous parabolic curve. Like the axe gauge in the Forest Service manual. I think this general shape provides for efficient chopping while still giving strength to the bit. Just pay attention to the heel and toe.
I feel your pain.
Ouch!
Square_peg
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Hemlock knot. They're almost glass hard. I wasn't being careful about tree species. That's a True Temper A6 with hardened poll. It's the only hard poll Dayton I've found.
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The leaves are also poisonous. Not only to cattle, most livestock, I believe. Whenever one falls on the farm we have to get it away from the animals quick even if it doesn't have fruit on it.
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One of my daughters wanted something from this tree and i am in the middle of making walking sticks for the family. She asked for hers to be from this tree. I told her maybe, as I wasn't sure how a 3 inch wide four foot cherry branch with a knot or two would split. Also, I know that there are stronger more durable woods but she weighs 80 pounds. Careful work with the froe seems to have worked well. Now for the drying.
I did a rare thing today and actually chopped down a tree. I'm more of a wood splitter usually. Anyway, I have of few of these unidentified hardwoods in my side yard and a couple are leaning over my fence starting to lean on it. The bark is weird, I don't know if this is normal or if they are diseased. All that I can tell you is that whatever it is, it is hard. One 8" tree that was maybe 25" tall chipped two of my axes. I finally brought out a full sized Dayton that was not properly sharp to finish. It worked but because it was only kinda sharp and the hardness of the tree it was more work that I expected. Sample pics of other of the same type as well as closer shots of the bark and woodgrain. I'm planning on using it for firewood as well as for some green woodworking and handle material and probably a couple walking stick
A more convex grind is what you need. Also it looks like you have thinned behind the toe of this axe. If that toe does not have enough steel behind it, it will be a point and will probably chip off. The heels and toes are the weak spots. Look at a good banana grind and where it starts. Did both axes chip at the heel or toe?
One of my daughters wanted something from this tree and i am in the middle of making walking sticks for the family. She asked for hers to be from this tree. I told her maybe, as I wasn't sure how a 3 inch wide four foot cherry branch with a knot or two would split. Also, I know that there are stronger more durable woods but she weighs 80 pounds. Careful work with the froe seems to have worked well. Now for the drying.
JB, with the sap being up in the spring time them splits might turn into spaghetti as they dry. I will sometimes turn them end to end from each other and tie wire them back together and leave them like that as they dry.
We (I do, for sure) expound on grain orientation and absence of runout specifically with regard to curved axe handles, but with walking/hiking sticks it seems to me advantageous to select for a straight round stick. Whether it gets uniformly thinned or not makes no difference. Circular grain is strongest of all (for non-strike/struck items) and runout on a straight limb is non-existent.
We all do need our projects though! And a chunk of Cherry will certainly look pretty.
We all do need our projects though! And a chunk of Cherry will certainly look pretty.