Help me make a wise choice.......

[kamagong]

That's a lot to mull over pinnah. Good stuff though. I'm going to address points 3 and 4.

3) Fit and Finish - In the 70s, it used to be that hand built bikes were far superior to crappy robo-welded bikes. By the mid 80s, robotics were producing more consistently brazed bike frames than production hand brazed shops. Custom makers still own the territory of pushing knives (or bikes or boots) well out into the land of art. But that's beyond mere fit and finish. To my mind, that's the territory of aesthetic customization (#1 above). Take a look at Victorinox SAKs, a knife I don't really care for. By all accounts, their highly automated production facilities are incredible and they put an incredibly consistent product. Very, very, very few custom makers can achieve and sustain that level of fit and finish at reasonable costs. Custom products are "bespoke" and unique. There are custom makers that do achieve high levels of fit and finish - don't get me wrong. But I've seen as much variance in fit and finish among custom stuff compared to what can be done with modern production that I consider this dimension to be a wash. It just depends.

4) Construction Durability and Performance - I work as an engineer so I'm going to be a bit dweebish on this. By durability and performance I mean really only those things. A knife needs to open, close, cut and stay together. There's very little hidden here in terms of the engineering basics of a folding knife - no real secret sauce. The OP noted the his Case has started to wobble. I would have to think that either he got a sub-par Case or (as many of us have done at some point in our lives) pushed a slip joint too hard. There's only so much the design of a slip joint can take, even if hand made by the most careful artisan. Let me put it this way, knives made of comparable materials and put together according to the same basic design are going to perform and last comparably. Putting yet another way, when I test or use the produced object, I don't see who made. I only see steel and other materials.

Fit and finish is not just an aesthetic consideration. They also impact the experience the user has when he interacts with his knife. Let me use two of my knives for example. One is a custom, the other production. My KHnutbuster has a superior fit and finish to any production slipjoint I've ever seen, save the Case/Bose annual collaborations. Surfaces are flush; springs, liners, and scales are all blended together. There are no sharp edges anywhere other than the cutting blade, so it is a pleasure to hold it in my hand. On the other hand, my Eye Brand stockman, good knife that it is, has a few fit and finish issues. The scale pins stand proud of the stag scales and can get annoying in extended use. The inside of the backsprings were left rough, so it has more spots than it should for its age. In addition, there is a gap between one of the scales and its adjacent liner. Not a problem now, but I'm keeping an eye on it in case it gets larger and compromises handle integrity in the future.

With regards to point 4, I agree in theory that knives made of comparable materials and put together according to the same basic design are going to perform and last comparably. The problem lies in the fact that you seldom see that in the real world. When was the last time you saw a production manufacturer execute the same design as a custom maker, to the same high standards? I can't think of a single applicable instance when it comes to knives, so your point is moot. I can think of some in the firearms industry. For example, there are now several companies producing 1911 pistols. Not surprising considering that the design is more than 100 years old and the patent has long expired. To the inexperienced eye, a Rock Island Armory gun looks the same as a Les Baer. They're not nearly the same gun though. The Baer is built the way John Browning designed it -- with a forged frame and slide and using tool steel parts that are handfit by a skilled gunsmith. The RIA on the other hand, takes several production shortcuts. They use a cast frame and slide. They use MIM parts. And perhaps worst of all, the parts used are often out-of-spec, so you have a real headache on your hands when (not if) something needs to get replaced.

I won't argue that everyone needs, or even wants, a top notch gun or even knife. Some people do though, and they are willing to pay for it. I think that's the biggest problem, the money factor. People wonder what makes a custom slipjoint cost much more than a Case, and if it's worth it. That's up to each person to decide. I'm just glad we have the choice.

- Christian

 

[richstag]

Im not going to argue any ones reasoning here. Its a very personal thing.

I want to say, with a custom I will be able to get a knife with good fit and finish, a specific blade height, width, length, profile and geometry that may not be available in a production. The exact liner, pin, handle and blade material of the customer's preference. Half stop or no half stop. Type of nail nick. Embellishments or plain. A heat treat that may be past the limit a production company is comfortable with putting out to the masses.

My main reason would be performance when it comes to blade geometry. Of course I can buy a ten dollar Opinel, but that may not get my blood rushing like a nice custom single blade ground thin with nice stag and an overall design that just speaks to me.

I don't think anyone is going to try to say a quality production can't last you a lifetime. I certainly wouldn't.

With that said, right now I am carrying a 60 dollar knife with plastic orange handles and an O1 blade. No complaints from me.

So just food for thought and not a retort to your reasoning. I have got to drop out of this conversation now.

 

[knarfeng]

Folks, the only thing I will say is that, when it comes to personal preference there are no absolutes. It all depends on what each individual values. It is all opinion and the concept of YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary) applies.

 

[ranchmanben]

Dawgs, If you are thinking about getting a knife made for yourself, I say pull the trigger. I recently had my first custom made and couldn't be happier. I don't make a whole lot of money, so a custom knife is an extravagance that I take pride in owning and occasionally getting to show off. Before I ordered one I looked at a hell of a lot of pictures by various makers and narrowed it down to a few I liked and could afford. I don't think anyone doesn't like Tony Bose but he's way out of my price range. I then found the phone numbers for the guys I likes and had a talk with them. One thing I learned is that all the custom makers are really really nice guys and make you feel good about spending your hard earned money on one of their fine knives. After talking with a few makers, I end up having Keith Johnson build a slightly modified Lanny's clip for me. I could not be happier with the knife I received. I have very limited experience with custom knives but I don't think you can go wrong with any of the makers that post on this forum.

As for the differences in Case and a custom, I feel like a comparison between a Kia and a Ford King Ranch pickup that gets 50 mpg. is a better comparison. A Kia will look alright and get the job done. One of those pickups is going to get a thousand bigger jobs done with more style and comfort.

 

[black mamba]

Pinnah, you continually compare customs to a crap shoot, as if quality was the luck of the draw. You say that you MAY get a good heat treat or you MAY get good blade geometry, etc. This may be true if you include every custom maker in the country, from mastersmiths to beginners. But ask any of the many users of customs on this forum and you will find that with the better makers, these things are a GIVEN. They consistently produce superior blades. On the other side of the equation, you then compare the customs to the one superlative example of factory heat treatment, Bos's 420HC, which they have perfected over decades. If you choose the factory best, how about comparing it to Tony Bose's 154CM? Many users (hard users) tell of amazing edge holding of his blades.

You then do the same thing in talking about fit and finish. You say you have a perfectly fitted Buck. Congratulations, (really!) but that isn't the norm. Many are quite good, very, very few are perfect. But with quality customs, many are close to perfect, while very few are just good.

Again, in walk and talk there is no comparison. I own hundreds of slipjoints, of which a small handful feel just right. Smooth, positive, and just the right amount of pull and snap. These qualities are the norm in a custom slipjoint, and if you get one you are not happy with, almost every reputable maker will adjust it for you to make it so. And yes, many of them use pivot bushings, almost unheard of in factory slipjoints.

Yes, custom slipjoints, the quality custom slipjoints talked about in this subforum, are indeed superior cutting tools. Choosing not to believe it doesn't make it untrue.

 

[pinnah]

Hey Jeff. I'll respond to your good point in line below, but let me begin by doubly emphasizing that I think customs are great I really honestly do. I think the artistry and craftsmanship they embody are just incredible and if somebody has the financial wherewithal to support custom makers, they should do so. There is a unity of integrated beauty, function and uniqueness in a custom that makes a well executed custom a rare joy. Nothing of what I'm about to write changes or challenges any of that. The only thing I'm saying (as a somewhat hard-nosed engineer) is that what separates a custom and a good production item is generally not technical functionality.

Pinnah, you continually compare customs to a crap shoot, as if quality was the luck of the draw. You say that you MAY get a good heat treat or you MAY get good blade geometry, etc. This may be true if you include every custom maker in the country, from mastersmiths to beginners. But ask any of the many users of customs on this forum and you will find that with the better makers, these things are a GIVEN. They consistently produce superior blades.

There are two issues here that are co-mingled. QA consistency and design execution (geometry, blade material & heat treatment). Let's take them in order.

In terms of consistency (what I called fit and finish), my experience is that this is generally a draw in my books. Plenty of production companies using aging machines and producing inconsistent results. Bear & Sons has this reputation. Others are insanely consistent. Victorinox has a great reputation in that regard (for the record, they leave me cold but I digress). I think Buck is more consistent than Case but that's a point fans will debate. Point here is that you can't say all production shops are inconsistent or all consistent. There's a range.

The economics of custom anything in the US is tough. Modern production techniques and imports keep prices suppressed. Most custom makers start as side businesses fueled by passion of the craft and only a relatively few become economically viable to the point that it can become a full time business. Here there's a hard choice: stick with fully customized things with each item being entirely different for each customer (longer production) or specialize in a few basic designs and to specialize on producing customized variations on those themes (shorter turn around times, quasi-production processes). In pretty much all cases, the custom maker is *THE* single point of failure in the production process, so any significant change in that person's life can have an affect on the produced good. Some makers can sustain incredible excellence over a long period and others less so. Word of mouth and reputation are the best bet, I agree, but this is definitely also shaded by buyer's bias - the propensity of buyers to defend the value of their investments.

Now, I'm going to make a distinction that I know will sound inflammatory, although it's not meant to be. In terms of aesthetics of fit and finish, custom makers tend to exceed. What I've seen in every other industry that I've been involved in though is that their fit and finish in terms functional construction integrity is all over the map. Most custom bike makers will do a good job with finish filing on their lug work but whether or not they can match the solder penetration or can avoid overheating as well as a good robotic system is another story. I see a bunch of custom knives out there and they look really pretty (as I would expect) but I have no expectation that their scales and the durability of their joints will be significantly different than good production knives. In fact, my expectation is the opposite. As a group, I rather expect less quality control from customs as a group in terms of integrity and durability and yes, I'm very definitely counting all of the home hobbyists who hang out their shingle on the web and declare themselves to be custom knife makers. You mentioned heat treatment specifically as being a place where custom makers excel. IME, this is exactly the place where I would expect tremendous QA variations among small custom shops. If the response is that a buyer should pick good custom makers, then I would say the same about production knives.

On the other side of the equation, you then compare the customs to the one superlative example of factory heat treatment, Bos's 420HC, which they have perfected over decades. If you choose the factory best, how about comparing it to Tony Bose's 154CM? Many users (hard users) tell of amazing edge holding of his blades.

I think it's only fair to compare heat treatment results using the same steel. My question would be, are there custom makers who can consistently heat treat 420HC better than Buck? If the question about 154CM then my question would be, does Tony Bose consistently heat treat 154CM better than, say, Benchmade (or Buck, for that matter)? This is the engineer in me coming out. Heat treatment is pretty well understood at this point. Do think there is some aspect of heat treatment of steel that can be done by custom makers that can't and isn't matched or exceeded by the best production makers?

You then do the same thing in talking about fit and finish. You say you have a perfectly fitted Buck. Congratulations, (really!) but that isn't the norm. Many are quite good, very, very few are perfect. But with quality customs, many are close to perfect, while very few are just good.

What I said is I don't see how it could be improved and I was saying that in the context of whether or not it had enough fit and finish to avoid premature wear of my pockets. I think it's quite good and what I would expect for a good production item. Would I expect more in terms of aesthetic fit and finish from a custom? Yes. Would my Dickie work pants or Wrangler Jeans notice the difference in terms of pocket wear? Not at all. Again, I readily concede that custom knives (and custom boots and custom bikes and custom packs) can exceed in areas of aesthetic fit and finish. From a functional standpoint, I don't see that as making any difference. The fit and finish of my Old Timers and Bucks are well, well within any possible functional concerns on this point. (Can't say the same about my old Ulster camper, fwiw.)

Again, in walk and talk there is no comparison. I own hundreds of slipjoints, of which a small handful feel just right. Smooth, positive, and just the right amount of pull and snap. These qualities are the norm in a custom slipjoint, and if you get one you are not happy with, almost every reputable maker will adjust it for you to make it so. And yes, many of them use pivot bushings, almost unheard of in factory slipjoints.

From an engineering point of view, walk and talk is an aesthetic issue. I'm not saying it's not important in anyway. I really must emphasize this. But it doesn't add to the function of the knife in terms of durability or cutting ability. Again, we see the exact same thing in comparing custom bikes to production bikes. The "walk and talk" of lugged steel bikes is the degree and quality of custom filing on the lugs of a frame. Like walk and talk of a good knife, once you know what you're looking for, there's just no comparing a good custom from a good production. They're worlds apart. But, this adds nothing meaningful to the integrity of the joint on the bike. This same thing shows up all the time in woodworking too.

Yes, custom slipjoints, the quality custom slipjoints talked about in this subforum, are indeed superior cutting tools. Choosing not to believe it doesn't make it untrue.

I don't think we're very far off, actually. Customs can be pushed in areas of clear aesthetic superiority. I would never, ever say that my production Trek ('79) or my production Fuji ('82) is in anyway going to be confused with a custom Rene Herse or Richard Sachs, just as I wouldn't suggest that my Buck 110 is in anyway comparable to, say, a Yellowhorse (not my cup o tea but you get my drift). But in terms of function, the bike frames give up nothing to the customs and my production Bucks and Old Timers are similar.

I need to close where I started. I'm speaking here as a cold heartless engineer, not as a human who is moved by craftsmanship and artistry, and I know that this perspective can be heard as jarring. It's not meant to be.

At the end of the day, there is *NO* comparison between a good custom and a good production. If you've ever seen a Limmer boot, or a Richard Sachs bike frame or a Tony Bose knife, any human with eyes and a heart that can be moved, can tell there's just no comparison. Nothing that I've written above changes or challenges any of that. As other have said, this is highly highly personal areas of choice.