help me out guys

Mannlicher

Mannlicher

Joined
Nov 19, 2008
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I like knives made by individuals, and not produced in a factory.
What I have found, with the knives I have bought recently, is excellent quality, good steel, and fair pricing.

My question is about production methods, and pricing. Water Jet cutting, stock removal, grinding and filing, and forging.
My guess is that forging takes more skill, time, and experience, with stock removal in between and water jet cutting taking the least skill.
How is a buyer to know how the blade was produced? I don't mind paying good money for a good blade, but I sure don't want to buy a kit knife at hand made knife prices.

Does the method really effect the end result?
 
This could open a real can of worms in the differance between forged blades and stock removal blades.Basicly if you like carbon steel forged blades or stock removal is fine,high end stainless steel knives are gonna be stock removal.Skill involed in both shows in the fit and finish of the knife.
Water Jet is usually used just to cut out blanks of steel for the knife to be made out of.
If you have questions aout the makeup of a knife contact the maker and talk with them about thier methods,most are happy to discuss the process with you.
Stan
 
There really isn't that much skill involved in the roughing out of blanks (profiling). Once the design is established (via the artisitc talent of the maker), some makers use a water jet to save consumables (belts) and time. This also allows them a more uniform "series" of knives if so desired. Personally, I use the profiling time of my process to fine tune each blade so that it feels good in hand and looks sleek and balanced. I guess that makes every knife I make a one-off as they are all somewhat different, but that's just how I prefer to do things. The profiling portion of the work is actually part of my design phase, as I get a rough idea of proportions and shape by drawing on the steel, and then I fine tine and finalize while grinding the profile.

As for forging vs. stock removal, they're really two different animals. Most forgers are also stock removers in that after the blade is forged to shape and sometimes beveled, it is taken to the grinder to finalize and clean up the shape and really set the bevels. There are some damascus patterns in which the knife is forged to shape and then all beveling is done on the grinder to avoid distorting the pattern. And then there are some makers who can forge completely to shape without any grinding.

I see forging as a wholly different skill from grinding. Those who forge have developed the skills necessary to shape a blade via heat and hammer as opposed to shaping the blade via moving belt. It's not that one is better than the other, they're just different. Both can be done well; both can be done poorly.

I think a forged blade usually takes a combination of skills greater in quantity than a stock removal blade, but they are both hand made processes. They are both custom. Fit and finish is something that can equalize the two. As for telling the difference, Karl has it right. There's no outward way of telling usually; you just have to take the word of the maker. That's where reputation comes in and why many (though not all) makers are so careful to maintain their reputation of quality.

--nathan
 
I sure don't mean to malign any maker, or his preferred methods. My hat is off to any craftsman that goes into this line of work.

I cruise by the 'for sale' sections often, and I have made several purchases. I am very pleased with everything I have bought, finding the knives functional and well made.

What I was asking, is, does the method used in the making the knife have a significant bearing on the end use functioning of the blade?

oh, and is is 'kosher' to ask a maker just how he arrives at his Rc numbers? I notice that some state that they send it out for testing, other makers just quote a figure.
 
Many makers have a Rockwell tester to test their own work. Others may have the knives heat treated by someone else and tested then. I think it's perfectly fine to ask any question you want of a maker. As the buyer, you are the one who is pulling the trigger, and you should have whatever information you need to make that decision. I would personally not be offended by any question put forth by a potential buyer.

As far as the end-result function? A properly made and heat treated stock removal blade and a properly made and heat treated forged blade should perform the same if given the same geometry.

--nathan
 
This article may be a worth-while read:

http://www.cashenblades.com/articles/lowdown.html

I love the history and romanticism behind the forged blade, and most makers would tell you they forge because they love to forge. I look forward to beginning my journey through the forged blade as soon as my forge gets set up. But I'm doing it because I love the idea, love the history, and enjoy working hot metal, not because I think it will produce a vastly superior blade.

As a buyer, there is absolutely nothing wrong with preferring forged blades or stock removal blades. It's a subjective preference and left entirely up to you.

--nathan
 
I really appreciate the answers.

There is a lot to learn for a buyer, let alone a maker, when it comes to steel, production methods and finishing.

After years of buying factory knives, (and thats not a bad thing necessarily), I have 'graduated' to wanting a product that is if not better, more completely satisfies my likes and dislikes.


again, thanks to all.
 
Most bladesmiths can grind, some stock removal guys can forge. If it's a hollow grind then 99% it's stock removal.

Neither performs better than the other if all things are equal, it's just a different path to the same end. Forging offers more opportunities to mess steel up via decarbonization and other factors, a quality smith will avoid these issues.

Have no fear about asking questions or just getting in touch with a maker and just shooting the bull about knives. Most of us don't have a lot of people to talk to about our craft and usually will babble on and on about blades and our philosophies.

RC numbers are usually arrived at through testing, some of us do periodic testing to ensure our processes are consistent. Some people use a Rockwell testers, some use RC files some just guess.
 
To my way of thinking, performance aside (save that debate for another time), the difference between forging and stock removal is not a finite thing, instead, we are all on a sliding scale to one degree or another, except for the strictly stock removal guys. Certainly, smiths overlap into the stock removal end. (you got to get through the decarb, right?) At the end of the day the appearance of a forged blade will be determined by the smith's stock removal skills. In one school of thought, the forging is done only for performance sake. The blade is left to (at) full thickness for metal integrity, the bevel done by removal.
I personally do not want to be pigeon-holed. If I am designing a knife for a customer that may be using it for coastal brown bear hunting I recommend stainless or stainless damascus. If sole authorship and asthetics are a higher priority for my customer, then I recommend some of my own damascus, likewise, if no frills but higer performance is the objective then differential heat treat of a high grade alloy alla ABS is the choice.
So for me, the intended use of the knife determines the materials and methods to be used.

Just one mans oppinion (I mean "opinion"), thanks Mark
 
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Most makers will gladly tell you how the blade was made, either forged or stock removed. If the maker you are interested in doesn't want to tell you then you should worry:)
 
A buyer will never know what truely goes into a knife until he actually makes one. Youve heard the saying blood sweat and tears went into making this . Well thats probably as true as it gets when it comes to making a knife. As far as a kit knife some of the nicest knives ive seen for quality are knife blanks, some take alot of work to get to be a finished product. I dont agree with a maker not diclosing everything about a knife they either made or assembled or even just applied handles. A friend of mine says the same thing until I explained that 4 to 5 hours to finish a blade blank to apply a handle is not a kit knife. Akit knife is simply that the handle is cut and sanded to fit and all you have to do is glue it on and say im finished ,that would take maybee 5 to 15 min max . Reprofile a blade resand it to 1200 grit taking 5 hours to make a handle from slabs is not a kit knife. I made a fair number and its a great way to make and sell affordable knives to people that cant pay 250 to 500 dollars for a knife. My last knife I sold was cut shaped profiled hollow ground, buffed, to 1500 then heat treated by another maker to a rc of 60 then I finished the knife with jigged buffalow horn scales with my own mosaic pins I made and sharpened the blade to shave hair. After I spent 15 hours making the knife did I make the knife , ya your dam right I did . Not all makers do all the steps in knife making, Kirby lamber is one of the top Canadian knife makers with his cheapest knife starting at 500 and going as high as several thousands has all his knife cut for him by a water jet . That saves him only time and money because there is no waste due to grinding. I would also like to say that a forger has seperate skills than that from a maker using the stock removal method. Its really a completely different way not saying one is better than the other, I would like to pound steel but physically cant. That would be like saying a person who forges steel using a little giant isnt really a forger until he pounds his steel all by hand. I hope Ive shed a little light on the subject for you.
 
As for myself I love it when customers or anyone ask me about how I make my knives. I especially like having them visit my shop. This allows a more visual/hands on ability to answer questions and usually leads to more questions. This also allows me to show them how some of my test knives perform, so they can see for themselves why a handmade knife is better than the one he bought at wally-world. Guess I'm just trying to say I love to talk about knives almost as much as I like making them and will gladly and honestly answer any question. And if I don't know I will admit it and try to find someone who does.
 
Hi Mannlicher and Friends,

I'm not used to folks discussing this stuff here from a buyer's/user's perspective. Excellent. Thanks Mannlicher!

Something I haven't heard yet is how the maker tests and stands behind his knives. That can be as poignant as any other questions, such as construction methods and Rockwell hardness. I've noticed that most makers I've come to aspire toward emulating, back their knives essentially "forever" (given basic qualifying knife-using parameters.) That can go a looooong way to assuring a buyer of value.

As in any custom field, the reputation of the maker is paramount. Product style probably comes a close second, followed by craftsmanship, methods and materials. Price point is, of course, the bottom line, and that is where the buyer sets the table. Are you buying a user, or for resale value, or for.... All decision making criteria probably gets in line right behind the users intended purpose for the knife.

As for buying from an unknown or new maker, obviously a tried reputation won't be in place. Never-the-less, it seems a buyer would have the same concerns. The new maker would probably be extremely motivated to meet those concerns. Of course, purchase prices will likely be considerably lower than the proven masters of decades at their craft.

I agree with others here, that your questions would be warmly welcome and appreciated by any maker worth their salt.

Aloha, Phil
 
Learning more about the maker's side of knives is informative and darn interesting.
A few thoughts from my end, as a buyer.
When I see a knife I like here, or at any other venue, I do an online search for his site, if he has one, and for comments, pictures and user reports from former customers that have used the blade in a manner that I would be.

Knowing who a maker has worked or apprenticed with goes a long way in establishing his credentials.
If I can use but one example, I saw on line, a knife by Dan Crotts. I had never heard of him. (sorry Dan:) ). When I looked for info, I found that he worked years with Bob Dozier. This knowledge gave me insight about his work.

Buying from makers that post on BF has allowed me to find high quality knives by both new, and established makers. I am getting exposure to craftsmanship and design ideas that would be hard to duplicate just visiting the local stores.

Reading the maker's area is 'schooling' me daily on methods, materials, production concerns and technique. Time is indeed, money. If one method allows a smith to produce a blade with less tedious hand work, but equal in quality, then it is almost always going to show a price break for the buyer.
Knowing more about what goes into a knife, allows me to make a better decision on what I need and want when I buy.

Thanks to one and all for helping me with this journey.
 
I personally keep my teacher's name private because I don't want any of my stupidity to reflect on him and his reputation.

I forge because I like it and my wife likes the "big right bicep, big left forearm" look I have after forging for extended periods :p

20 minutes forging saves me 2 hours stock removal since I've quit using power tools.

The pile of steel dust when I had my Burr King made me sad, lot of money and resources in a pile.

When people ask me what machines I use and I reply "a hammer, anvil and forge", the look is priceless.

I forge because I find it more "intimate", when I grind it's a more "cut here, angle this" mechanical operation. When I forge there's more "me" in it.

I like forging because I think the variety of ways you can use a hammer and the parts of a hammer besides the face to interact with the steel is neat.

I forge because I can move some steel back to cover up boo boo.... try that with a grinder :)

I post on BF because I'm not forging :p
 
Will Leavitt said:
The pile of steel dust when I had my Burr King made me sad, lot of money and resources in a pile.
Click to expand...

Just to give an idea of how much steel is lost during stock removal, I have 2 identical blanks. Before beveling they weigh 9.5 oz after beveling for full flatgrind they come in at 7.5 oz
 
Will Leavitt said:
I personally keep my teacher's name private because I don't want any of my stupidity to reflect on him and his reputation.

I forge because I like it and my wife likes the "big right bicep, big left forearm" look I have after forging for extended periods :p

20 minutes forging saves me 2 hours stock removal since I've quit using power tools.

The pile of steel dust when I had my Burr King made me sad, lot of money and resources in a pile.

When people ask me what machines I use and I reply "a hammer, anvil and forge", the look is priceless.

I forge because I find it more "intimate", when I grind it's a more "cut here, angle this" mechanical operation. When I forge there's more "me" in it.

I like forging because I think the variety of ways you can use a hammer and the parts of a hammer besides the face to interact with the steel is neat.

I forge because I can move some steel back to cover up boo boo.... try that with a grinder :)

I post on BF because I'm not forging :p
Click to expand...

Hi Will, I like all of the things you said, this knife making thing is personal, it should be. I think that is the real reason people buy hand made knives, there is some of you in there. Mark
 
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