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- May 4, 2001
- Messages
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Muzzle energy is not drastically different in the SKS said:
-
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Help me pick a milsurp rifle!
- Thread starter tychoseven
- Start date
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2005
- Messages
- 317
Ok, so I'm checking out 8mm Mausers. I see Yugo-reworked German 98ks for $170-200. 24/47s from $110-180. This Czech 98k caught my eye, but I wonder about wartime quality control issues. Then there are M48s at Classic Arms (down at the bottom) for super cheap, but with dark bores. I notice on Cavetech's forums there is mention of dark bores that clean up with shooting. How important is a bright bore? I know a pitted and worn barrel will give crap for accuracy, but I don't know anything about "dark"- does this equal a patina or is it something more sinister?
I feel obnoxious asking all these questions, but I haven't found answers elsewhere, so I'm just gonna keep asking...
I feel obnoxious asking all these questions, but I haven't found answers elsewhere, so I'm just gonna keep asking...
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 20,206
Well, "dark" used to mean corroded. Not good unless you wanted the piece only for the action to be used in a rebuild job or intended to bore out the barrel to a larger cal.
An early war CZ would be primo if it's in good condition. Late war (say 44/45?) I'd pass on, though they may be just fine. The 24/47 are all prewar rifles that were reworked after the war, so one in VG condition may not have seen alot of use.
Dark Bores may or may not clean up, and they may or may not shoot. Pitted bores can shoot ok with jacketed ammo, lead bullets maybe not.
Here's an article about surplus guns for ya.
"Selecting Surplus Rifles"
If you missed this when it appeared in American Rifleman, here it is again in the "Fidonet Condensed Version:
By Ed Harris (Revised 3-4-94)
The military surplus rifles now available at bargain prices are a good way for new shooters to get started economically. Bore condition of a used rifle may vary from bright and clean, through light "salt & pepper", or "dark with strong rifling" to the proverbial "sewer pipe".
This is because nearly all military rifles made before 1950 were exposed to chlorate primers. If they saw any combat, you can expect less than perfect bores. Today's shooters, weaned on non-corrosive primers, immediately think of anything but a shiny, perfect bore as irreparably "damaged", but this is not the case.
I have enjoyed many interesting firearms I might not have otherwise, because I was not afraid to buy one with an imperfect bore. I learned a great deal in the process. The second-hand rifle is like an old house. If it shows honest wear, and has no irreparable structural damage, it remains useful. Slight pitting of a rifle bore does little real harm.
If the bore is somewhat dark, but capable of being restored to firing condition by careful cleaning or lapping, its utility is undiminished. Mild pitting which will (probably) clean up to a mostly bright, but lightly speckled bore, gives the shrewd buyer a good position to haggle on the price. There is always some risk, because you never know it is a good shooter until you actually clean up and fire the rifle. So consider the risk in the price you are willing to pay.
The presence of pitting in any degree is a disappointment, but should not discourage you from enjoying an otherwise sound firearm. Choose a model and caliber which appeal to you, for either historic or practical reasons. The experienced shooter, even if not a collector, can find a niche for a military rifle in his gun rack. Why buy a surplus rifle when you have a closet full of pretty ones, you ask? I'll tell you why...
We all need an inexpensive "spare" rifle to loan to the clown in camp who doesn't take care of his stuff as well as you and I do! Iron sights, admittedly, aren't ideal for adverse hunting conditions, but they can get the job done, and might make the difference between hunting or not. A surplus military rifle is a good idea for a utility piece which might take a beating in a pickup rack on the farm, or for other rough and ready duty.
Most surplus rifles on the market remain serviceable despite decades of storage and intermittent use, because they were well designed and made to begin with. They usually shoot well, given a little cleaning up. A less-than-perfect bore will usually shoot fine with jacketed bullets if the crown is in good shape. Cast lead bullets, even if gaschecked, can be an iffy proposition unless the bore will clean up to "mostly bright, with mild salt and pepper bore, no large or deep pits".
The worn bore with light pitting responds well to careful cleaning, sometimes lapping, and recrowning. Such a restored bore often handles cast bullet loads just fine if the bullet fits properly, is well lubricated and velocities are kept below about 1600 f.p.s. Such mild cast bullet loads work well for informal target shooting and up to 200 yards, and for hunting small game or varmints.
A reputable dealer should have no objection to your bringing a cleaning rod, bore brush, solvent, wiping rag and patches so you can make a careful visual inspection, before you buy. Thank him for his indulgence and show him the courtesy to clean up after yourself! If ordering through the mail and having a rifle shipped to your local dealer, find out the distributor's return policy.
I have had several bad experiences ordering surplus rifles which were not as represented, and was further annoyed to be charged a "restocking fee" to return a rifle in "NRA Good", which was represented as "excellent" by somebody's standard. I had a well- known distributor flatly refuse to take the rifle back and refund my money until I complained to Postal authorities and the office of consumer protection in the state where the firm was located. I repeat the tale in hopes that my experience may save you similar headaches.
I prefer to support local dealers, and am willing to spend a bit more and expend some effort cleaning a half-dozen rifles to select the exact one I want. This effort is usually appreciated by the dealer because it makes his remaining stock more attractive and easier to sell. If you frequent gun shops in Northern Virginia, sniff for "Ed's Red" and you'll know I've been there!
Exterior appearances of military surplus rifles can be deceiving. Many rifles have outside wear from handling or storage, but have been shot very little. I have seen many Finnish and USSR Mosin- Nagants which were beat up on the outside, but which had fine bores and were good shooters. I have found that rifles sold out of storage from their original countries of origin are usually in good shape. Other rifles have been abused through decades of conflict on several continents, and are as bad inside as out. Those cast off to Mediterranean, Asian, Middle Eastern or African nations, after WWII seem particularly sad indeed.
I went through a batch of 30 Finnish M28/30's in which half of the bores had rusted underneath the grease, probably from failure to clean adequately after a chlorate-primed proof load 30 years ago, whereas the others were perfect. Had I bought one off the rack without cleaning it, luck would have it I would have gotten the rusty one. I ended up with a half dozen Finn-Moisins, and tested them all to find the best lead bullet shooter. I sold all the pretty ones with bright bores and nice wood to collectors. After I cleaned up the ugly one and put a thousand lead loads through it, it out-shot the them all. It's a 1-1/2 m.o.a. rifle with my best cast loads or Sierra 168s.
Some tips in what to look for will help you separate the shooter from the wall hanger. The crown must be in good shape or capable of being easily repaired with a brass ball and lapping compound. Avoid muzzles which have been counterbored. In Third World countries, this is often done crudely with a twist drill, on rifles which should have been rebarrelled or scrapped. When counterboring is done with a piloted reamer, insuring concentricity, counterboring can work well, but why take a chance on one somebody else has done?
Pitting in the bore cannot be excessive to the point that the bullet is damaged, or is unable to become sufficiently stabilized. Packing grease hides the pits, so you must clean the bore more thoroughly than just running a few dry patches through it in order to examine it. The best method is to push a wet, bore cleaner-soaked patch though the barrel to push out most of the grease, and wet-brush the bore two or three passes to loosen the softened grease and dirt. Flush out the dislodged residue with two more wet patches before attempting to dry the bore and chamber for visual inspection.
A GI-type bore reflector is handy, because it also lets you examine the condition of the chamber and throat as well as the bore. This will tell you more than anything else about the rifle's potential serviceability. The chamber cannot be pitted because this will increase extraction effort. Such a condition is beyond economical repair because it requires setting the barrel back a thread and rechambering. A somewhat worn and eroded bore and throat may still shoot OK if smooth, but be wary of heavy heat checking and deep pitting.
Carefully examine the rear engaging surfaces of the locking lugs for deformation or galling. Inspect the lugs where they meet the bolt body for cracks. While the bolt is removed, examine the bolt-face, firing pin tip, extractor and locking surfaces for pitting, galling, cracks or deformation. A pitted boltface means that the rifle has suffered pierced primers and is a warning that the tip of the firing pin may be pitted or sharp. The striker tip should be smooth and hemispherical. Driven firing pin protrusion should never exceeding the diameter of the striker point. Most modern rifles have protrusion of only .030-050", but military rifles made before 1940, such as Mausers and Mosin- Nagants, often had up to about .070," which can cause problems with pierced primers.
If the bolt is numbered and doesn't match the receiver you should have the headspace checked by a competent gunsmith before firing the rifle. If that is not possible, fire the first round with the rifle wrapped in a old blanket, tied to a tire, and held down with a sandbag, pulling the trigger with a long string from behind cover.
Examine the fired case for protruding primers, bulges or splits. Note any abnormal resistance to extraction. Once you have examined the rifle and are aware of its actual condition, you must decide if it is acceptable for the price as- is, or whether it falls into the "economically restorable" category you can haggle on.
Lapping a bore is not all that difficult to do. The method I use is to first clean with Ed's Red, then degrease the barrel with mineral spirits. Impale a patch on a worn bore brush, pulling it about 3/4 of the way down the brush. While the lead pot is heating I smear some bullet lube around the exterior of the muzzle and to keep the lead from sticking. I then pre-heat the barrel by pouring a few dippers full of hot lead over the muzzle. Next I run the patched brush out so it stops about 1 bullet diameter short of he muzzle.
Pour the bore pour it full of lead, letting the whole dipper full overflow and run off the muzzle to make sure I get a good casting. When the lead hardens, push the casting about 1/2" out of the muzzle and trim the end off with a wire cutter or sharp knife. Smear AA Clover paste on the trimmed casting while it is still warm, holding the muzzle up so will readily flow around the lap.
Pull the lap back forcefully into the barrel, then reposition the rifle solidly in a padded vise with the muzzle against a firm, smooth surface so the lap will not exit the muzzle until ready to recharge and index it. Bumping the lap slightly against the stop at each stroke will upset it slightly to that it stays snug.
Give the lap four or six passes in each direction. Then push the lap out the muzzle, wipe on some more compound, and rotate it over one groove, pull it back into the bore and repeat the process. Some gunsmiths argue that the lap should never leave the groove it was cast in, but I agree with Boots Obermeyer that you will get better results if you index the lap, because the grit will not keep running in the same "tracks." When the lap starts feeling loose in the bore, usually after four to six passes, index and repeat once, the job is done.
Flush out the bore and action recesses thoroughly with mineral spirits and wipe everything dry to remove all traces of abrasive. Recrowning with a brass lapping ball or large headed wood screw smeared with Clover "A" grit and oiling well to prevent rust finishes the job.
--- msged 2.05 * Origin: Home of Ed's Red (1:109/120.3006)
Dark Bores may or may not clean up, and they may or may not shoot. Pitted bores can shoot ok with jacketed ammo, lead bullets maybe not.
Here's an article about surplus guns for ya.
"Selecting Surplus Rifles"
If you missed this when it appeared in American Rifleman, here it is again in the "Fidonet Condensed Version:
By Ed Harris (Revised 3-4-94)
The military surplus rifles now available at bargain prices are a good way for new shooters to get started economically. Bore condition of a used rifle may vary from bright and clean, through light "salt & pepper", or "dark with strong rifling" to the proverbial "sewer pipe".
This is because nearly all military rifles made before 1950 were exposed to chlorate primers. If they saw any combat, you can expect less than perfect bores. Today's shooters, weaned on non-corrosive primers, immediately think of anything but a shiny, perfect bore as irreparably "damaged", but this is not the case.
I have enjoyed many interesting firearms I might not have otherwise, because I was not afraid to buy one with an imperfect bore. I learned a great deal in the process. The second-hand rifle is like an old house. If it shows honest wear, and has no irreparable structural damage, it remains useful. Slight pitting of a rifle bore does little real harm.
If the bore is somewhat dark, but capable of being restored to firing condition by careful cleaning or lapping, its utility is undiminished. Mild pitting which will (probably) clean up to a mostly bright, but lightly speckled bore, gives the shrewd buyer a good position to haggle on the price. There is always some risk, because you never know it is a good shooter until you actually clean up and fire the rifle. So consider the risk in the price you are willing to pay.
The presence of pitting in any degree is a disappointment, but should not discourage you from enjoying an otherwise sound firearm. Choose a model and caliber which appeal to you, for either historic or practical reasons. The experienced shooter, even if not a collector, can find a niche for a military rifle in his gun rack. Why buy a surplus rifle when you have a closet full of pretty ones, you ask? I'll tell you why...
We all need an inexpensive "spare" rifle to loan to the clown in camp who doesn't take care of his stuff as well as you and I do! Iron sights, admittedly, aren't ideal for adverse hunting conditions, but they can get the job done, and might make the difference between hunting or not. A surplus military rifle is a good idea for a utility piece which might take a beating in a pickup rack on the farm, or for other rough and ready duty.
Most surplus rifles on the market remain serviceable despite decades of storage and intermittent use, because they were well designed and made to begin with. They usually shoot well, given a little cleaning up. A less-than-perfect bore will usually shoot fine with jacketed bullets if the crown is in good shape. Cast lead bullets, even if gaschecked, can be an iffy proposition unless the bore will clean up to "mostly bright, with mild salt and pepper bore, no large or deep pits".
The worn bore with light pitting responds well to careful cleaning, sometimes lapping, and recrowning. Such a restored bore often handles cast bullet loads just fine if the bullet fits properly, is well lubricated and velocities are kept below about 1600 f.p.s. Such mild cast bullet loads work well for informal target shooting and up to 200 yards, and for hunting small game or varmints.
A reputable dealer should have no objection to your bringing a cleaning rod, bore brush, solvent, wiping rag and patches so you can make a careful visual inspection, before you buy. Thank him for his indulgence and show him the courtesy to clean up after yourself! If ordering through the mail and having a rifle shipped to your local dealer, find out the distributor's return policy.
I have had several bad experiences ordering surplus rifles which were not as represented, and was further annoyed to be charged a "restocking fee" to return a rifle in "NRA Good", which was represented as "excellent" by somebody's standard. I had a well- known distributor flatly refuse to take the rifle back and refund my money until I complained to Postal authorities and the office of consumer protection in the state where the firm was located. I repeat the tale in hopes that my experience may save you similar headaches.
I prefer to support local dealers, and am willing to spend a bit more and expend some effort cleaning a half-dozen rifles to select the exact one I want. This effort is usually appreciated by the dealer because it makes his remaining stock more attractive and easier to sell. If you frequent gun shops in Northern Virginia, sniff for "Ed's Red" and you'll know I've been there!
Exterior appearances of military surplus rifles can be deceiving. Many rifles have outside wear from handling or storage, but have been shot very little. I have seen many Finnish and USSR Mosin- Nagants which were beat up on the outside, but which had fine bores and were good shooters. I have found that rifles sold out of storage from their original countries of origin are usually in good shape. Other rifles have been abused through decades of conflict on several continents, and are as bad inside as out. Those cast off to Mediterranean, Asian, Middle Eastern or African nations, after WWII seem particularly sad indeed.
I went through a batch of 30 Finnish M28/30's in which half of the bores had rusted underneath the grease, probably from failure to clean adequately after a chlorate-primed proof load 30 years ago, whereas the others were perfect. Had I bought one off the rack without cleaning it, luck would have it I would have gotten the rusty one. I ended up with a half dozen Finn-Moisins, and tested them all to find the best lead bullet shooter. I sold all the pretty ones with bright bores and nice wood to collectors. After I cleaned up the ugly one and put a thousand lead loads through it, it out-shot the them all. It's a 1-1/2 m.o.a. rifle with my best cast loads or Sierra 168s.
Some tips in what to look for will help you separate the shooter from the wall hanger. The crown must be in good shape or capable of being easily repaired with a brass ball and lapping compound. Avoid muzzles which have been counterbored. In Third World countries, this is often done crudely with a twist drill, on rifles which should have been rebarrelled or scrapped. When counterboring is done with a piloted reamer, insuring concentricity, counterboring can work well, but why take a chance on one somebody else has done?
Pitting in the bore cannot be excessive to the point that the bullet is damaged, or is unable to become sufficiently stabilized. Packing grease hides the pits, so you must clean the bore more thoroughly than just running a few dry patches through it in order to examine it. The best method is to push a wet, bore cleaner-soaked patch though the barrel to push out most of the grease, and wet-brush the bore two or three passes to loosen the softened grease and dirt. Flush out the dislodged residue with two more wet patches before attempting to dry the bore and chamber for visual inspection.
A GI-type bore reflector is handy, because it also lets you examine the condition of the chamber and throat as well as the bore. This will tell you more than anything else about the rifle's potential serviceability. The chamber cannot be pitted because this will increase extraction effort. Such a condition is beyond economical repair because it requires setting the barrel back a thread and rechambering. A somewhat worn and eroded bore and throat may still shoot OK if smooth, but be wary of heavy heat checking and deep pitting.
Carefully examine the rear engaging surfaces of the locking lugs for deformation or galling. Inspect the lugs where they meet the bolt body for cracks. While the bolt is removed, examine the bolt-face, firing pin tip, extractor and locking surfaces for pitting, galling, cracks or deformation. A pitted boltface means that the rifle has suffered pierced primers and is a warning that the tip of the firing pin may be pitted or sharp. The striker tip should be smooth and hemispherical. Driven firing pin protrusion should never exceeding the diameter of the striker point. Most modern rifles have protrusion of only .030-050", but military rifles made before 1940, such as Mausers and Mosin- Nagants, often had up to about .070," which can cause problems with pierced primers.
If the bolt is numbered and doesn't match the receiver you should have the headspace checked by a competent gunsmith before firing the rifle. If that is not possible, fire the first round with the rifle wrapped in a old blanket, tied to a tire, and held down with a sandbag, pulling the trigger with a long string from behind cover.
Examine the fired case for protruding primers, bulges or splits. Note any abnormal resistance to extraction. Once you have examined the rifle and are aware of its actual condition, you must decide if it is acceptable for the price as- is, or whether it falls into the "economically restorable" category you can haggle on.
Lapping a bore is not all that difficult to do. The method I use is to first clean with Ed's Red, then degrease the barrel with mineral spirits. Impale a patch on a worn bore brush, pulling it about 3/4 of the way down the brush. While the lead pot is heating I smear some bullet lube around the exterior of the muzzle and to keep the lead from sticking. I then pre-heat the barrel by pouring a few dippers full of hot lead over the muzzle. Next I run the patched brush out so it stops about 1 bullet diameter short of he muzzle.
Pour the bore pour it full of lead, letting the whole dipper full overflow and run off the muzzle to make sure I get a good casting. When the lead hardens, push the casting about 1/2" out of the muzzle and trim the end off with a wire cutter or sharp knife. Smear AA Clover paste on the trimmed casting while it is still warm, holding the muzzle up so will readily flow around the lap.
Pull the lap back forcefully into the barrel, then reposition the rifle solidly in a padded vise with the muzzle against a firm, smooth surface so the lap will not exit the muzzle until ready to recharge and index it. Bumping the lap slightly against the stop at each stroke will upset it slightly to that it stays snug.
Give the lap four or six passes in each direction. Then push the lap out the muzzle, wipe on some more compound, and rotate it over one groove, pull it back into the bore and repeat the process. Some gunsmiths argue that the lap should never leave the groove it was cast in, but I agree with Boots Obermeyer that you will get better results if you index the lap, because the grit will not keep running in the same "tracks." When the lap starts feeling loose in the bore, usually after four to six passes, index and repeat once, the job is done.
Flush out the bore and action recesses thoroughly with mineral spirits and wipe everything dry to remove all traces of abrasive. Recrowning with a brass lapping ball or large headed wood screw smeared with Clover "A" grit and oiling well to prevent rust finishes the job.
--- msged 2.05 * Origin: Home of Ed's Red (1:109/120.3006)
- Joined
- Apr 27, 1999
- Messages
- 6,117
If you want something that is lightweight and does a good job on deer I would consider a 6.5mm to 7mm cartridge. If you can find a good deal on a 7x57 Mauser with an action that you like jump on it. The recoil is moderate, the trajectory is good, and at moderate range you could even use it on elk. The problem is to get the good deal. These things are popular.
I like an action that cocks when you lift the bolt rather than the cock on closing actions. I like those later Mausers. One gun that fits my caliber preference and action style is a dark horse contender, the Italian Carcano. I like the M38 carbine model in the 6.5x52 cartridge. This is light, pleasant to shoot, and has good military sights. It is not one of the pop favorites, but it really does a good job. It did suffer a bit in the press when Oswald used it on Kennedy, but it is a heck of a handy gun. You don't find as much surplus ammo kicking around though.
I like an action that cocks when you lift the bolt rather than the cock on closing actions. I like those later Mausers. One gun that fits my caliber preference and action style is a dark horse contender, the Italian Carcano. I like the M38 carbine model in the 6.5x52 cartridge. This is light, pleasant to shoot, and has good military sights. It is not one of the pop favorites, but it really does a good job. It did suffer a bit in the press when Oswald used it on Kennedy, but it is a heck of a handy gun. You don't find as much surplus ammo kicking around though.
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2005
- Messages
- 760
I'd always like to buy a rifle with a brite shiny bore, but that doesn't always happen with mil-surp. The dark bore was a K. Kale Turk in like new condition all over (80 bucks) but the bore was dark.
I'd never had a dark bore so I was worried. I cleaned the heck out of it and it came out much improved. After shooting and another cleaning it was even better. The part that matters to me is accuracy. The lands and grooves were good and sharp. The rifle turned out to be accurate and a great shooter.
Moral of the story is good lands and grooves trump dark.
I heard mention of war time quality control. I have not had a bad Mauser. Also, if you collect you buy what you need for your collection. You can't change a war time firearm having been made during wartime. I wouldn't give QC a second thought. Most of the mil-surps seem to have been rearsenaled and brought up to like new. Then dunked in cosmolene and stored.
I think one of the best buys is the rearsenal'd Yugo 24/47 Mauser. Mine is beautiful, like new - 119.00. Can't beat that. Here's a pic of it.
Thanks for looking.
I'd never had a dark bore so I was worried. I cleaned the heck out of it and it came out much improved. After shooting and another cleaning it was even better. The part that matters to me is accuracy. The lands and grooves were good and sharp. The rifle turned out to be accurate and a great shooter.
Moral of the story is good lands and grooves trump dark.
I heard mention of war time quality control. I have not had a bad Mauser. Also, if you collect you buy what you need for your collection. You can't change a war time firearm having been made during wartime. I wouldn't give QC a second thought. Most of the mil-surps seem to have been rearsenaled and brought up to like new. Then dunked in cosmolene and stored.
I think one of the best buys is the rearsenal'd Yugo 24/47 Mauser. Mine is beautiful, like new - 119.00. Can't beat that. Here's a pic of it.
Thanks for looking.
Attachments
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- Aug 9, 2005
- Messages
- 317
Ok, I think I just need to accept that I'll be eventually getting several milsurp rifles. I've been looking over the M-N 91/30s and now I'd like one of those as well....
But starting with the Mausers, yes. I'm not collecting the guns for their historical value (although I would fancy an original Nazi S.S. 98K, but that's the exception) but for their fun and practical use. Hence, I value accuracy and build quality over cosmetic condition. Dark bores are fine as long as it shoots well.
About the 24/47: is accuracy comparable to the 98K or M48? Barrel length is only different by 0.4" so I would expect it to be similar. Soon as I can scrounge the cash together I'm getting one.
Thanks for your help everyone!
-tycho-
But starting with the Mausers, yes. I'm not collecting the guns for their historical value (although I would fancy an original Nazi S.S. 98K, but that's the exception) but for their fun and practical use. Hence, I value accuracy and build quality over cosmetic condition. Dark bores are fine as long as it shoots well.
About the 24/47: is accuracy comparable to the 98K or M48? Barrel length is only different by 0.4" so I would expect it to be similar. Soon as I can scrounge the cash together I'm getting one.
Thanks for your help everyone!
-tycho-
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2005
- Messages
- 760
I was specifically thinking of your research into buying a mil-surp when I spent yesterday at the range. So I took my 24/47 and wanted to show it to you.
http://forum.ramanon.com/showthread.php?p=447850#post447850
I have so little free time I can't redo the post here. My intent is not to cross post. Just to point out info for you.
If my cross posts are against the rules here maybe Nasty could contact me and let me know.
http://forum.ramanon.com/showthread.php?p=447850#post447850
I have so little free time I can't redo the post here. My intent is not to cross post. Just to point out info for you.
If my cross posts are against the rules here maybe Nasty could contact me and let me know.
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2005
- Messages
- 317
Thanks again for all your help, and your pictures Cavetech. Makes me itchy, I can't wait to order one! I've sent off copies of my C&R to several dealers and now I'm just trying to figure out if it's better to buy now or in a few weeks, as a certain holiday season is approaching....
On that topic:
Do most milsurp dealers have Christmas specials? If so I might wait and see if I can pick up an even better deal on a rifle or some ammo.
-tycho-
On that topic:
Do most milsurp dealers have Christmas specials? If so I might wait and see if I can pick up an even better deal on a rifle or some ammo.
-tycho-
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2005
- Messages
- 760
Once you send your C&R to all the dealers with a cover letter asking to be put on their mailing list and e-mail specials list you will get e-mails with specials and newspaper type specials from many of them.
These mail outs have specials on everything you can imagine.
I've learned from experience to never buy any rifle that is not graded at least very good. I always pay the extra $10.00 for hand picked and I am adamant about what I want and what I will not accept.
Dealer e-mail and snail mail specials will become a burden on you. You will not be able to work enough to pay for everything you want. You will be addicted.
Don't forget to send your C&R to brownell's and Midway since they give nice discounts to C&R, but you have to ask for it.
Prices really vary between dealers and you have to study the differences and call the dealers and ask specific questions. Some come with accessories, some don't. A rifle may have add on costs such as hand picked, specific arsenal, specific year, etc. By the time you add up all the fees for what you want you might be able to get a better deal elsewhere. Maybe.
Don't be afraid to shoot corrosive ammo. It's cheap and is just fine. Clean the rifle properly right at the range before going home and you'll never have a problem.
Some guys like to refinish the stocks and stuff. Some prefer to leave them original. That's personal preference.
It is an awful lot of fun. For me it's the history associated with the rifles.
Shop around for ammo bargains. Be careful what you get charged for shipping. Some dealers only charge a small flat rate for as much as you want. Others will want so much for freight the ammo is no longer a bargain.
You'll get some good buys. Every now and then you will get a lemon. Sending one back for a refund or replacement is just part of it.
Between kukris and C&R I will end up in debtors prison for sure.
Enjoy.
PS: Take every one apart to the last screw for cosmolene removal and to inspect each rifle for missing parts and possible safty issues. It's also a good way to get to know your new rifle.
These mail outs have specials on everything you can imagine.
I've learned from experience to never buy any rifle that is not graded at least very good. I always pay the extra $10.00 for hand picked and I am adamant about what I want and what I will not accept.
Dealer e-mail and snail mail specials will become a burden on you. You will not be able to work enough to pay for everything you want. You will be addicted.
Don't forget to send your C&R to brownell's and Midway since they give nice discounts to C&R, but you have to ask for it.
Prices really vary between dealers and you have to study the differences and call the dealers and ask specific questions. Some come with accessories, some don't. A rifle may have add on costs such as hand picked, specific arsenal, specific year, etc. By the time you add up all the fees for what you want you might be able to get a better deal elsewhere. Maybe.
Don't be afraid to shoot corrosive ammo. It's cheap and is just fine. Clean the rifle properly right at the range before going home and you'll never have a problem.
Some guys like to refinish the stocks and stuff. Some prefer to leave them original. That's personal preference.
It is an awful lot of fun. For me it's the history associated with the rifles.
Shop around for ammo bargains. Be careful what you get charged for shipping. Some dealers only charge a small flat rate for as much as you want. Others will want so much for freight the ammo is no longer a bargain.
You'll get some good buys. Every now and then you will get a lemon. Sending one back for a refund or replacement is just part of it.
Between kukris and C&R I will end up in debtors prison for sure.
Enjoy.
PS: Take every one apart to the last screw for cosmolene removal and to inspect each rifle for missing parts and possible safty issues. It's also a good way to get to know your new rifle.
Rather than start a new thread, thought I'd just post this info to the last 'milsurp' thread I could find. It appears surplusrifle.com will be shutting down in 03/07:
http://www.surplusrifle.com/
Eric
http://www.surplusrifle.com/
Eric
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2003
- Messages
- 13,182
I love the SKS.
I have 3.
Cheap to shoot. Very little recoil, cool looking.
Marginal for deer but I bet you will spend more time shooting it and becoming a better shot if you buy one.
On the dark bore issue. I would much rather have a gun with a less than ideal bore(but not totally shot out) and a really good trigger, than a gun with a pristine bore and a really heavy trigger.
If I go to a store with surplus rifles I usually buy the one with the lightest trigger.
I have 3.
Cheap to shoot. Very little recoil, cool looking.
Marginal for deer but I bet you will spend more time shooting it and becoming a better shot if you buy one.
On the dark bore issue. I would much rather have a gun with a less than ideal bore(but not totally shot out) and a really good trigger, than a gun with a pristine bore and a really heavy trigger.
If I go to a store with surplus rifles I usually buy the one with the lightest trigger.