Help me sharpen two basic knives that i can't figure out

[Against_The_Wind]

I own mostly all 1095 knives for camping type chores and bushcraft. For years it's hit or miss if I get a knife sharp. I am simply a novice sharpener

I own the spyderco sharpmaker, WS guided sharpener, a leather strop, and now to complicate matters my wife got me the WS precision adjust elite, and it's still in the box awaiting advice on here!

I have sharpened my esee 6 on the spyderco SM at 20 degrees, using a sharpie on the bevel. I recently learned that I may be doing this wrong, as I was removing just the sharpie at the very apex and not removing all the sharpie...does this mean I was just putting a micro bevel?

Second knife I'm having issues with..mora bushcraft black, I know that most use a whetstone and grind the entire scandi bevel, but I dont own and have never used a whetstone. So I just used the spyderco sm on the mora at 20 degrees, knowing this is not the true scandi grind. So I guess I was just sharpening the microbevel on the mora also?

And to be completely candid, I hardly understand microbevels, but I hear Moras have them.

So both of these knives have edges that will cut paper, but shaving hair is difficult. It feels they are ripping out hairs vs shaving. The edges and the way they cut, just seem odd. I did strop them also.

What do I need to do or not do to get proper edges on both knives. I'm hoping my new ws precision adjust will be able to bail me out, but I dont even know what I need to do with that.

Thank you in advance!

 

[UncleBoots]

There's nothing wrong with a microbevel. Odds are, from your description, that you have not fully deburred the edge.

 

[Spillproof]

Your WS will fix it.
I own one (same model) and the learning curve is One Knife. So grab something cheap and get to sharpening! They are extremely easy to use and once you get over the hump you'll never have a dull knife again.

 

[Guy McVer]

I have sharpened my esee 6 on the spyderco SM at 20 degrees, using a sharpie on the bevel. I recently learned that I may be doing this wrong, as I was removing just the sharpie at the very apex and not removing all the sharpie...does this mean I was just putting a micro bevel?

Yes. The original angle of the knife is less than 20 degrees per side. By sharpening at 20dps, you created a micro bevel. There's nothing wrong with that.

If you simply keep sharpening at 20dps, the micro bevel will become larger and turn into its own secondary bevel. You need to decide if that's what you want.

And to be completely candid, I hardly understand microbevels, but I hear Moras have them.

A micro bevel strengthens the apex at the cost of making it slightly less "slicy". It makes your edge last longer especially on cheaper steels and when doing things that aren't just straight cuts which would put more lateral (sideways) force on the knife.

So both of these knives have edges that will cut paper, but shaving hair is difficult. It feels they are ripping out hairs vs shaving. The edges and the way they cut, just seem odd. I did strop them also.

What do I need to do or not do to get proper edges on both knives. I'm hoping my new ws precision adjust will be able to bail me out, but I dont even know what I need to do with that.

Both edges are "proper" already, unless you actually want to shave with them. Not every edge has to be hair shaving sharp. It just depends on what you want to do with it.

 

[Against_The_Wind]

Your WS will fix it.
I own one (same model) and the learning curve is One Knife. So grab something cheap and get to sharpening! They are extremely easy to use and once you get over the hump you'll never have a dull knife again.

Thanks!

 

[Against_The_Wind]

I opened my Work Sharp precision adjust and wow have I learned a lot practicing on an old knife.

In just checking my esee 6 on it, the bevel on one side is 26 degrees and the bevel on the other side is 28 degrees. I determined that by putting sharpie on the bevel and finding the angle that remove it from the entire bevel.

Considering I have been trying to sharpen the esse 6 at 20 degrees pn my spyderco sm, as recommended by esee, I now see why my efforts were futile.

So, what do I do from here?

I'm guessing the knife has a small microbevel due to Me sharpening at 20 degrees.

I do not like the microbevel and how it behaves in cutting, I want it gone and the edge to be like it was from the factory.

So I guess I could sharpen each side at those angles I discovered, 26 and 28, but I want to be near 20 degrees.

Do I just start on the WS precision with the 220 grit at 20 degrees and do equal strokes to both sides until the sharpener removes the entire sharpie off the bevel on both sides?

Thank you!

 

[Guy McVer]

In just checking my esee 6 on it, the bevel on one side is 26 degrees and the bevel on the other side is 28 degrees.

That makes no sense. Think about it.

In your original post you said:

I have sharpened my esee 6 on the spyderco SM at 20 degrees, using a sharpie on the bevel. I recently learned that I may be doing this wrong, as I was removing just the sharpie at the very apex and not removing all the sharpie...does this mean I was just putting a micro bevel?

This would only happen if your edge angle was LESS THAN 20 degrees per side. Not greater than.

If your edge angle was greater than 20 degrees per side, then you would be removing material from farther up on the shoulder, not at the apex.

Do you understand? This is basic geometry. What you're saying makes no sense.

 

[Against_The_Wind]

That makes no sense. Think about it.

In your original post you said:



This would only happen if your edge angle was LESS THAN 20 degrees per side. Not greater than.

If your edge angle was greater than 20 degrees per side, then you would be removing material from farther up on the shoulder, not at the apex.

Do you understand? This is basic geometry. What you're saying makes no sense.

I have just discovered the actual edge angles on the knife are 26 and 28 degrees, so had I been attempting to sharpen at 20 degrees on bevels that are 26+ degrees, Couldn't that cause a microbevel?

If I'm mistaken, I apologize, I know next to nothing about knife geometry or how it translates to a microbevel.

I just know that when sharpening my knife on the spyderco sharpmaker at 20 degrees and marking the bevel with a sharpie, I was removing the Sharpe at the very edge, but still had sharpie left over still on the bevel above the edge, so I thought that would be causing a microbevel since my sharpening angle was not hitting the whole edge bevel.

 

[Guy McVer]

I have just discovered the actual edge angles on the knife are 26 and 28 degrees, so had I been attempting to sharpen at 20 degrees on bevels that are 26+ degrees, Couldn't that cause a microbevel?

No.

If you are having trouble visualizing it, then take out a piece of paper and draw it.

You have your Spyderco Triangle Sharpmaker sticks set at 20 degrees. Then you have your knife edge at 26 and 28 degrees on each side. If you sharpen on the Sharpmaker while holding the knife straight up and down, then the Sharpmaker sticks cannot physically reach the apex because of the difference in the angles. For the sticks to reach the apex, you need a knife edge angle of 20 degrees per side or less.

Understand? Draw it on paper if you need to. If your knife edge was actually 26 and 28, then you would never have been able to hit the apex on the Sharpmaker.

 

[fishface5]

Unless he was tilting the blade, not holding it at exactly 90 degrees, in which case he could still gat a microbevel

 

[Guy McVer]

Unless he was tilting the blade, not holding it at exactly 90 degrees, in which case he could still gat a microbevel

Not possible unless you consciously change the angle of your tilt for each stick. Think about it. You would have to tilt to the right for the left stick, then tilt to the left for the right stick. You have to do it on purpose or it would never happen. In other words there is no way for you to do something like that without knowing it.

 

[Another Shepherd]

Not possible unless you consciously change the angle of your tilt for each stick. Think about it. You would have to tilt to the right for the left stick, then tilt to the left for the right stick. You have to do it on purpose or it would never happen. In other words there is no way for you to do something like that without knowing it.

Guy is right about this.

If somebody could draw some pictures, I think that would help Against_The_Wind. Pictures always help with geometry.

 

[TheOne45]

I know next to nothing about knife geometry or how it translates to a microbevel.

I can't say for sure from your writing but looks like you have no idea what's going on with knife sharpening.
No worries; you are on the right place. You can get all the help from this forum but the first step is on you - first you need to do some things by yourself.

If you want to communicate about anything you first need to ''learn the language''.
So; in you case (knife sharpening) you first need to do the homework and go to Google and educate yourself about knives.
Knives have handles and blades. Blades have spine, primary bevel, secondary bevel, sometimes micro bevel, heel, tip, choil… etc.

Type in Google: anatomy of a knife
From those pictures you will find, how we call parts of the blade.
Then type in Google: knife secondary bevel angle
Secondary bevel is the thing you want to make when you sharpen your knives.
Then you go to Youtube and find some sharpening videos with sharpening system you have. There are tutorials how to use WS precision adjust elite.
I know because I was just there.

 

[Against_The_Wind]

I can't say for sure from your writing but looks like you have no idea what's going on with knife sharpening.
No worries; you are on the right place. You can get all the help from this forum but the first step is on you - first you need to do some things by yourself.

If you want to communicate about anything you first need to ''learn the language''.
So; in you case (knife sharpening) you first need to do the homework and go to Google and educate yourself about knives.
Knives have handles and blades. Blades have spine, primary bevel, secondary bevel, sometimes micro bevel, heel, tip, choil… etc.

Type in Google: anatomy of a knife
From those pictures you will find, how we call parts of the blade.
Then type in Google: knife secondary bevel angle
Secondary bevel is the thing you want to make when you sharpen your knives.
Then you go to Youtube and find some sharpening videos with sharpening system you have. There are tutorials how to use WS precision adjust elite.
I know because I was just there.

I know my nomenclature is not where it should be, but I actually spend a lot of time googling technical aspects before I post, which I did in the case of a microbevel.

My research yielded that if when sharpening a bevel that had been colored with a sharpie and only the apex is where the marker is being removed and not the entire height of the sharpied bevel, that situation would likely be putting on a microbevel.

This is what happening in my situation, but I'm obviously not conveying it accurately on here by the angles I'm mentioning

 

[Guy McVer]

I'm obviously not conveying it accurately on here by the angles I'm mentioning

Yes the angles you gave us are clearly wrong.

According to the ESEEKnives FAQ:

"WHAT IS THE SHARPENING ANGLE ON ESEE KNIVES?

The edges on all of our knives are applied by hand. We do our best to maintain a 20 degree (per side) edge angle but due to the hand application, they may vary slightly. We suggest using a Spyderco Sharpmaker for general edge maintenance or a flat diamond hone."

source url: https://www.eseeknives.com/frequently-asked-questions

You claimed that the edge is at 26 degrees on one side and 28 degrees on the other, which I have explained is not possible based on the story that you told us in your first post. Their FAQ does say that the angle may be off slightly because they do it by hand, but there's no way it was off by as much as 6-8 degrees larger on each side. It definitely was not off by that much going by what you told us about how the Sharpmaker was hitting it when you used the 20 degree angle slots. If anything, what you told us suggests that the knife edge angle must be slightly smaller than 20 degrees per side. In that case there should be no problem. Just continue sharpening it on the Spyderco Sharpmaker at 20 dps.

 

[TheOne45]

It's somehow annoying people spend time typing and trying to explain what they did without understanding sharpening basics and fundamental geometry.
It should be in forum rules... less text and post some photos.

 

[Against_The_Wind]

Yes the angles you gave us are clearly wrong.

According to the ESEEKnives FAQ:

"WHAT IS THE SHARPENING ANGLE ON ESEE KNIVES?

The edges on all of our knives are applied by hand. We do our best to maintain a 20 degree (per side) edge angle but due to the hand application, they may vary slightly. We suggest using a Spyderco Sharpmaker for general edge maintenance or a flat diamond hone."

source url: https://www.eseeknives.com/frequently-asked-questions

You claimed that the edge is at 26 degrees on one side and 28 degrees on the other, which I have explained is not possible based on the story that you told us in your first post. Their FAQ does say that the angle may be off slightly because they do it by hand, but there's no way it was off by as much as 6-8 degrees larger on each side. It definitely was not off by that much going by what you told us about how the Sharpmaker was hitting it when you used the 20 degree angle slots. If anything, what you told us suggests that the knife edge angle must be slightly smaller than 20 degrees per side. In that case there should be no problem. Just continue sharpening it on the Spyderco Sharpmaker at 20 dps.

I've well aware of their FAQ, that's why I tried to sharpen at 20 degrees initially.

Here's how I got to the 26 and 28 degrees.

I colored the secondary bevel with a sharpie.

Then I put the esse 6 in my Worksharp precision adjust elite and very carefully adjusted the angle until I removed the sharpie along the entire height of the secondary bevel. I was not able to achieve this until I was at 26 degrees on one side and 28 on the other.

I own an esee 3,4, 5, and have never had an issue getting those sharp on the sharpmaker, so yes there is something off with the 6, hence the topic of my thread.

 

[TheOne45]

so yes there is something off with the 6

So reset the bevel to 40 inclusive and call it a day.

 

[Against_The_Wind]

It's somehow annoying people spend time typing and trying to explain what they did without understanding sharpening basics and fundamental geometry.
It should be in forum rules... less text and post some photos.

So I am a novice sharpener who use to not have a clue what a knife apex is, a burr, how to find a burr, or that general sharpening is done at 20 degrees, but that also is 40 degrees inclusive, didn't know the sharpie trick, didn't know what reprofiling meant, didn't know what stropping is.

All of these things I know have a general understanding of from research. But yes edge geometry is confusing to me and the more I research it the more confused I get.

I only posted once my research came to a stalemate.

I have a lot of technical knowledge in unrelated fields of which I consider myself an expert, but I dont let that get to my head and I am humbled to help others particularly when they are really confused.

I never expect beginners to have proper nomenclature. I contribute to a lot of online forums with my knowledge, but I certainly don't share your mentality.

Somebody on here said that the fact I'm confused on the geometry of sharpening to not worry as I found the right place...I'm not so sure about that.

Whoever moderates this forum, please feel free to close this thread so I don't continue to waste everyone's time.

 

[Guy McVer]

I've well aware of their FAQ, that's why I tried to sharpen at 20 degrees initially.

Here's how I got to the 26 and 28 degrees.

I colored the secondary bevel with a sharpie.

Then I put the esse 6 in my Worksharp precision adjust elite and very carefully adjusted the angle until I removed the sharpie along the entire height of the secondary bevel. I was not able to achieve this until I was at 26 degrees on one side and 28 on the other.

I own an esee 3,4, 5, and have never had an issue getting those sharp on the sharpmaker, so yes there is something off with the 6, hence the topic of my thread.

I have already explained in detail how it is not possible for the knife to be 26 and 28 degrees per side. If you have not understood this, then at this point it's your own fault.

Have you considered the possibility that the geometry of the knife itself that is throwing you off?

Please note that I said knife, not edge. Two different things. To clarify, the shape of the knife isn't always going to be perfectly straight and even all the way from the spine to the edge (or from one end to the other, from the heel side to the tip end). You could also be doing something wrong with the Worksharp. Maybe you are using the clamp wrong somehow. Maybe you even clamped it crookedly, which could cause you to get two different angles for each side. I don't know because I don't have one and I'm not able to sit there looking over your shoulder.

All I know is that I have repeatedly seen people on here discuss how the angles on clamp systems can be thrown off by the shape of the knife.

So reset the bevel to 40 inclusive and call it a day.

Bad idea based on what I've read here so far.

Somebody on here said that the fact I'm confused on the geometry of sharpening to not worry as I found the right place...I'm not so sure about that.

No you're definitely in the right place. But it seems like your head isn't. Yet.

edit: fixed some terminology and added some clarification to avoid any possible confusion