Help me, yea im new...

C

chriswillman

Joined
May 1, 2011
Messages
24
Hey guys. I just started gluing the olive wood handle on my first knife made from a file that said *CHINA* on it so I didnt know the steel, I used up two sanding belts for a belt sander (non ceramic) for all the shaping. Then I made a little tin can forge with some mud packed into it and normalized it at non magnetic heat or whatever. Then I heated it up again and heat treated it by dipping just the blade (it kinda looks like a steak knife) into a tin can of conola oil (the blades all that would fit). Then I tempered it with a propane torch. (I dont think I did a very good job at tempering but o well it was my first try). I would really like someones input on the best ways to quench 1095 steel (thats what I plan an using for most of my future knives) Please give me info on what to quench in, what part of the knife to put in there, and how long ect.. I am very confused on this quenching stuff, please be detailed, Thank you
 
Hmmm, so you were heat treating your blade by intuition? ;-)

I don't know the answer to your question about heat treating 1095 off the point of my head. I would have to look through the various threads as I know it's been answered many times. The topic of heat treating steel is not as simple as one would think it is. There are books written about it, classes given about it, and it's all tied into the topic of metallurgy. An excellent place to start your learning process is by checking out the appropriate stickies at the beginning of this part of the forum. to be specific the one titled "Rosetta Stone of Metallurgy - Lots of HT info here"
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/716812-Rosetta-Stone-of-Metallurgy-Lots-of-HT-info-here

Within this sticky is a reference to another thread titled "The process and principles of quenching".
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/639019-The-process-and-priciples-of-quenching

This will give you DETAILED information about quenching.

I've used 1095 steel and found out that it is not a good candidate for the type of heat treating that you (and me too incidentally) are doing. Why is that want to know? Well, the answer can be found in a thread titled "Working the three steel types".
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/673173-Working-the-three-steel-types.

I've switched to 1080/1084 steel because of what I've learned on this forum.

These are some real good places to start learning about what you want to know. Good luck.

- Paul Meske
 
I thought that first of all I'd point out that it would be a good idea to normalize before grinding- to save a lot of time, pain, and belts. Also, "non magnetic heat or whatever" strikes me as a little vague. It either is or it isn't. You need to make sure with this stuff.

I don't know offhand how fast canola will quench, but it's probably on the slow side for 1095. This steel likes a fast quench. If that's what you are going to use, a couple things will speed it: preheat the oil to around 120 degrees, and agitate the knife back and forth in a chopping motion (not sideways, that can cause warpage.)

The best quench for 1095 is probably Parks 50 or a similar fast quench oil. People use water, but the risk is there of cracking your blade. Some research is there if you look, that will help you to not crack steel with water quenching, but it's far safer and less frustrating to use oil especially when starting out.

Someone who deals with 1095 more than I will surely chime in at some point...
 
yea, It was at non magnetic, I just touched the blade to a magnet I had attached to my vice that was holding my dirt in a tin can forge, pardon my "or whatever" slang. Thanx for your help guys
 
Welcome to the BF, Chris.

There is so much to deal with in your post. It is hard to know where to start. Reading all the stickies will help a lot. The ones Paul posted that are on HT are a good place to start. The one on "How to make a Knife" is a good general one to read. Getting a book on knifemaking from the library , or a knife supplier, is a good way to get some basic info,too. Many have charts on HT and such in them.

OK, lets deal with the things in the order of importance:

Steel -
Use a known steel.......Simple as that.
A file may or may not make a good knife. All you know was that it was made to be a file, and you don't know any more than that. Knowing the steel type and its makeup will allow you to work it and heat treat it properly. Starting with 1080 or 1084 will be a good choice, as they HT the simplest. Aldo Bruno sells this steel quite cheaply. These are excellent steels, and will make a first rate knife.

Heat treatment and Quenching -

While a "Can-O-Dirt" forge may heat up the blade, I tend to doubt it will work very well. A better source of heat and a properly insulated chamber should be high on your list of things to build.

The blade needs to be brought up to the Austenitizing temperature, which is around 50-75F above non-magnetic. Steel becomes non-magnetic at 1414F and the hardening temperature is generally in the range of 1450-1500F. Heat the steel to non-magnetic, and then just a little redder. Try and hold it at that temperature for at least one minute. 1095 requires about a 10 minute soak at this temperature to be heat treated properly, so using 1080/1084 is the way to go with really simple equipment.

Canola oil will work for simple steels, but 1095 needs a faster oil. Parks/Heatbath #50 is the normal quenchant for 1095. Water quench for 1095 works, but the failure rate in broken blades is high. If you use canola for 1095, it may not properly harden. Also, a tiny can of Mom's cooking oil is insufficient to do a quench in. You need at least one gallon of oil to have enough thermal mass to quench a blade. Warm the oil to about 100-120F before the quench. It works better when in that range.
After the hardening is over, pour the oil back into the bottle when it is cooled down, as it can be used more times. Another good reason to get real quench oil is that it doesn't go rancid and break down like cooking oil will. A gallon of parks #50 will last many years of regular use.

When you quench the blade, stick it in point first and move the blade up and down in the oil for 30 seconds, then let the blade cool off in the oil for another minute or two.

After quenching, the blade needs to be tempered. It is very brittle after quench, and will break if dropped or bent. It needs to be tempered as soon as possible. Wash it off and put in a 400F oven for two hours. Take out and cool down to room temp. You can just rinse it off in running water to cool it down. It will be fine, and won't crack. Place back in the 400F oven for two more hours. Let cool. The blade is now hardened and tempered. It is ready for finishing.

Belts and such - Using a belt made for woodworking will be frustrating ,as they will wear down fast, Using a metal working belt, and one of good quality will be money well spent.The knife suppliers and belat companies all sell the type used for knife work.
While a grinder may be faster, hand sanding with wet-or-dry paper on a wooden block is the best way to get a good and flat finish on the blade. Annealing the steel before starting on the project will make it as soft as possible for working on the knife. After hardening, the work goes slower, and you must avoid overheating the blade while grinding.If you turn the edge blue while grinding ( after HT) the temper is ruined in the blue area, and the blade will not keep the edge well.


BTW, I assume the way you worded the post was not meant to say what you did. You said you attached the scales, and then ground the blade, and then heat treated the knife. The blade would have to be completed and heat treated first. Remember to drill all rivet holes ( if any) first, as they can't be drilled easily after hardening.
Also, there is no "whatever" or "Oh well" in knife making. You should do the best you can at all times.
 
I think most of this will help you


The Standard Reply to New Knifemakers v14

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, or you may have a helpful neighbour; but that depends on where you are. We have members worldwide.
Fill out your profile with your location (Country and State at least), age, education, employment.

Look at the threads stickied at the top; many are expired, but not all.

The basic process in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF-Right Click and Save
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E.Apelt

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-Website

http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos

BladeForums - E-books or Google books


I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:
See the Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings & the Loveless book. Google books thread


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF
It’s being reprinted now, you can get it for $20 ish

The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

The goop quench is total Bull.
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type; even grocery store canola oil works much better.

Junkyard steels require skill and experience to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.

I like cable damascus, but that advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.


Videos

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available, some are better than others.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

The best video on leather sheath making I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 new videos, his sheath work is fantastic. I hope the videos are too)

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.
Be sure to look at the other titles too-The account index has disappeared, but search for LOTS of info.
Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB

How to get that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

You can see a list of videos and reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.
If you send out for heat treating, you can use O1, A2, D2, CM154, ATS34, s30v, 440C, plus many others.

If you heat treat yourself, find some 1070, 1080, 1084,
1084 FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for knifemaking.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160

You can find a list of suppliers here

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.

This PDF brochure gives a good overview
http://www.buckknives.com/resources/pdf/Paul_Bos_Brochure.pdf
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)


Grinder / Tools

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Photo of a nice bevel filing jig

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder

Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinders
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders

Mapp arm – Grinder Toolrest


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html
http://www.atlasknife.com

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html


Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewelry and put on safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.
The minimum I would consider are the 3M 7500 and North 7700 silicone half masks with a P100 Filter.
Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for protection against acetone and solvents.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=788837
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=726309


V13 Edited dead links
 
Thanx for your answers guys, I guess 1095 is not a beginers steel. I will be trying to find something to make a better forge out of asap.
 
I alluded to the fact that I use a "tin can" forge. However I plan to make myself a "two-brick" forge soon (in my language this means sometime between now and ten years from now ;-). I think it will fit my budget and definitely do a cleaner job than my current set up. Do a google search for "one brick forge" and you'll get lots of leads. If I were doing this for a living there is no question that a professional temperature controlled kiln is the ideal way to go, or send your blades out for heat treatment.

Are you really brave? Post a picture of the knife you want to make next.

- Paul Meske
 
I am working on getting an air tank or a break drum to make a nice coal forge out of, will probly be powered with the blow end of a shopvac. I ordered some o-1 and 5160 steel from jantz supply since they were cheapest. I wanted to ask you guys what your favorite knife steel is performance wise. Im sure ill get all different answers just like asking the bow makers what design is best, I figure theres a balance cause theres only so much of certain elements you can fit into a steel, so you can have more benefits from one element or the other, so theres a balance, but what do I know. Thanx for your help guys.
 
Start with 1084 or 5160. Both forge easily, and HT well with a minimum of equipment. Be sure to read Kevin's sticky on "Working with Three Steels"

A shop vac will be too much air. Add a PVC gate valve in the air line to choke it down. A bleeder line with a valve will also make it work better .

Google "Brake drum Forge" for more info on building a simple coal forge.

Building a simple propane forge with a venturi burner will cost little, and be much easier to use and control. It can be upgraded to a blown burner, and PID control added later without starting from scratch again.
 
chriswillman said:
I wanted to ask you guys what your favorite knife steel is performance wise.
Click to expand...

From one amateur to another, the way to get the best performance from any particular type of steel is with proper heat treating. It seems that the more complicated the mix is, the more complicated the heat treatment is. It may involve holding the steel at a certain temp before bringing it up to the austentizing temp, where is might need to soak for a while with special atmospheric control. Quenching can be complicated too, and then there's tempering, and possibly cryogenic cooling.

My point is, Not every and any steel can be properly or adequately heat treated in a forge. I think that the question you are asking is "Which steels would I be able to heat treat with a charcoal or coal fired forge?"

1080/1084 seems to be the best candidate for beginners. Where does that leave 1095, O1, 5160, 52100, and other common knife steels (I'm not even going to mention stainless steels)? In my experience I found conflicting and confusing advice about them. I've taken 1095, O1, even D2, got it nice and red-hot (how hot? Who the heck knows?) then quenched them in vegetable oil or actual quenching oil and gotten them hard enough for a file to skate off them. I know I made them hard-ER than they were before but not if I made them close to the maximum hardness possible.

Here's the problem as I see it. I don't know what I don't know. Was my temp at quench too high, too low, or just right? What happens if it does get too high or too low? What happens if you don't soak the blade at the correct temperature? What is happening to grain size with all these variables? Heck if I know. My apprehension is that what I am doing might lead to a knife that will break

I was at our local technical college library today looking through the Handbook for Heat Treating, and a couple other books on the subject trying to wrap my brain around this subject. Many times I have to read one sentence and make sure I understand it and how it relates to what I read earlier, before I read the next sentence. I swear, I am a reader with at LEAST an average reading ability and comprehension. I was able to graduate from college, twice, once with a bachelor's degree (Psychology) and then a master's degree (Media Technology). But this heat treating science is kicking my butt. Truly a college degree does not make someone smart.

Did I have a point to all this? I think so.

You are interested and enthusiastic and want to jump in and just start doing it. That's great, but there is a mountain of information, knowledge and science out there on this subject. You can have fun getting steel red hot but you gotta understand what's REALLY happening during the process. Race car drivers drive real fast. Does that mean then that if I drive real fast that it makes ME a race car driver? Only in my dreams.

I’m so confused. But I’m having fun!

- Paul Meske, Wisconsin
 
Yea im sure it will be the same as when I first got into wooden bows, I now finally understand all the designs and benefits to some and other designs there are, exept for knives its all about the steel and heat treatment, I intend to stick to the simple steels, like the ones you mentioned for most of my knives, im not a big stainless steel knife fan anyways, I just like real hard and tough steel and like all my knives 60hrc or above, I hope when I make 20 knives or so to get into swords. Gonna see if I can pick up some fire bricks today for a propane powered forge. Thank you for all your help guys.
 
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