Help Me!!!

E

Eowyn

Joined
Mar 2, 2000
Messages
3
I am a young girl fairly frail in stature that has been lately concerned about my personnal welfare if ever put in a compromising situation. A friend advised me to get a knife along with the regular pepper spray, ect. type defenses. Well I finally got myself one; a fixed blade, double edged, boot knife at 3 inches in length. I have heard too many different stories on what is and what is not legal to carry on your person and now I'm getting concerned on if what I have is even legal. I live in the Illinois Chicagoland area and I like to stay a law abiding citizen as much as I can, so if any one can, please, please, PLEASE some one tell me what is going on.
Thank you.


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-*Eowyn*-
 
Welcome to the forums!

Try this: http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum32/HTML/003356.html

And this: http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/sta-law.htm

On a related note, make sure you how to use any knife you consider as a defensive weapon. Having a knife for defense can make you feel "big" and that can mean that you are less aware of what's going on around you. If you aren't seriously willing to learn how to use the knife, and actually cut someone if necessary, you might want to carry something else (I know, this is Bladeforums, so I should bite my tongue for saying that, but...).

Out of curiosity, what knife is it (maker, model)?

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by e_utopia (edited 03-02-2000).]
 
Hey Chi-town, use the Forums search feature to research knife laws, there was a posting a short while back covering knife laws in all states. Il laws are fairly vague, but you can figure it out.

Jake
 
Welcome to BladeForums.

I also recommend searching out the Illinois laws on knives. The BladeForums search feature will help you search through each of the individual forums. I recall one of the more famous BladeForums members has a site which lists all the state laws (I see e_utopia has posted Bernie Levine's site - that's the one I was thinking of). There should be some forum members from your area who will hopefully post on this, so keep checking and you may see some good info later.

Please, if you haven't yet done so, get some self-defense or realistic martial arts training. Carrying a weapon won't do you much good if you can't use it effectively. Check out the forums in tactical and training and you should see some good info there.

Stay safe and be well in Chi-Town!
smile.gif


 
Welcome to the forums! I can't help with the legality issue but I can give you a bit of good advice, learn to use that knife BEFORE you carry it. A knife can be a great defense, but if you don't know how to use it there's a very good chance it's going to be used against you. Might I also suggest a self-defense course.

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"Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heav'n"
John Milton
There are only two types of people; those who understand this, and those who think they do.
 
First, I'll second (or third, or whatever), the recommendation that you get self-defense training before carrying a weapon. A knife in the hand of an untrained individual is, IMHO, more dangerous to that person than their attacker.

Second, WRT IL laws, they are based upon your intended use for the knife you are carrying. If it is your intention to use the knife (or any dangerous object on your person) as a weapon, even in defense, you are violating the state law. That said, a carried knife should be reasonably explainable as a utility knife. Once you're in a fix, you can defend yourself with whatever is necessary and handy, including tools you carry for other purposes - but your initial purpose for carrying the object can not be as a weapon.
Something to take from this - if a LEO ever asks why you're carrying the knife, the word "defense" should not be uttered!

A concealed, double-edged, fixed blade knife is an extremely difficult sell as a utility knife. Depending upon who's doing the defining (never you!), the knife runs the risk of being considered a "dirk or dagger", which many areas specifically prohibit, regardless of size.

You also should check with the city where you live about any applicable city ordinances. Chicago in particular has several that are much more strict than those imposed by the state.

I'm not a lawyer, check with one before taking any legal advice (especially keyboard jockeys on the net)!

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AKTI Member #A000832

"That which does not kill me just postpones the inevitable."
 


Illinois Criminal Code 720 ILCS 5/24-1. Unlawful Use of
Weapons. (a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly... (2) Carries or possesses with intent to use the same unlawfully against another, a dagger, dirk, billy, dangerous knife, razor, stiletto, broken bottle or other piece of glass... or any other dangerous or deadly weapon of like character...
- 720 ILCS 5/33A-1... A person is considered armed with a dangerous weapon... when he carries on or about his person or is otherwise armed with a category I or category II weapon. (b) A category I weapon is a [firearm or] a knife with a blade at least 3 inches in length, dagger, dirk, switchblade knife, stiletto, or any other deadly or dangerous weapon of like character.
- 720 ILCS 5/24-1. Unlawful Use of Weapons. (a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly: (1) Sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses or carries any... knife commonly referred to as a switchblade knife, which has a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife, or a ballistic knife, which is a device that propels a knifelike blade as
a projectile by means of a coil spring, elastic material, or compressed gas...
- 720 ILCS 5/33A-1... A person is considered armed with a dangerous weapon... when he carries on or about his person or is otherwise armed with a category I or category II weapon. (b) A category I weapon is a [firearm or] a knife with a blade at least 3 inches in length, dagger, dirk, switchblade knife, stiletto, or any other deadly or dangerous weapon of like character.
Illinois Case Law:
- "Possession of hunting knife is not a crime; however, knowingly carrying or possessing dangerous weapon with intent to use same unlawfully against another constitutes offense..." (1982)
- "Weapon not listed in statute can become "dangerous weapon" when it is used in a manner dangerous to well being of individual threatened, and knife with blade less than 3 inches in length can be dangerous weapon if used in such manner." (1991)
- "A straight-blade razor did not constitute a per se
dangerous weapon, for purposes of armed violence
charge..." (1987)
- "Walking cane, even if not per se dangerous, was...
transformed by defendant's usage into a dangerous weapon." (1977) http://www.knife-expert.com

To make a long story short, according to the above; any knife with a blade of 3" or more is a NO-NO. Any double edged knife is also illegal. And ANY knife carried with the intent to cause harm is illegal.

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Louis Buccellato
http://www.themartialway.com
Knives, Weapons and equipment. Best prices anywhere.
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"only the paranoid will survive":)


 
Louis-Where specifically do you see a restriction against double edged knives? The reason I ask is because I bought a double edge knife in the Chicago area last spring. I know that double edged knives are illegal in Massachusetts, and are not available for sale in any form.

I do believe double edge knives are legal in IL. However, I don`t think I`d want to be caught with one on my person!
 
Thanks for posting the statutes, Louis!

The important things to note here are that in 720 ILCS 5/33A-1, the definition is laid down for the term "Armed with a Dangerous Weapon". It's significant to note here that the statute does not offer this up as a crime, but simply a definition.

As noted in 720 ILCS 5/24-1, the actual criminal offense of "Unlawful Use of a Dangerous Weapon" is defined. You are not committing a crime until you have the intent to use your weapon unlawfully (emphasis added) against another person.

The case law you have graciously provided bears this out, in stating that it is legal to carry a hunting knife, until you formulate unlawful intent. Additionally, the cases bear out that the list of prohibited weapons is really a guideline. Any object, be it a knife, bottle, or rock, becomes a dangerous weapon in violation of the statute as soon as you realistically threaten or actually commit bodily harm to another.

The only items specifically prohibited from any type of carrying are switchblades and gravity knives, as defined.

An important thing to note about intent is that a LEO can choose to arrest you for Unlawful Use of a Dangerous Weapon pretty much on sight of a knife as specifically defined to be a dangerous weapon, and leave it for the court to decide what your intent was. This is why it's important to a) carry a knife that "says" utility, and b) NEVER state that you are carrying for defense.

While it is true that knives under 3" will help to shield you from a guilty verdict, since they don't actually become dangerous weapons until used unlawfully, a knife over 3" is still quite legal.

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AKTI Member #A000832

"That which does not kill me just postpones the inevitable."

[This message has been edited by Brian_Turner (edited 03-02-2000).]
 
Steve B

- 720 ILCS 5/33A-1... A person is considered armed with a dangerous weapon... when he carries on or about his person or is otherwise armed with a category I or category II weapon. (b) A category I weapon is a [firearm or] a knife with a blade at least 3 inches in length, dagger, dirk, switchblade knife, stiletto, or any other deadly or dangerous weapon of like character.

They mention "dagger", which most double edged knives would be. But Brian brings up an interesting point. I "assumed" that "posession of a dangerous weapon" was considered illegal, why else would they list it if it wasn't? But that may not be true.

Brian,
do you know for sure if "posession of a dangerous weapon" is legal or not?

Everything else they discuss is illegal,why would they throw in something that was not, just for a defination? I am very curious.

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Louis Buccellato
http://www.themartialway.com
Knives, Weapons and equipment. Best prices anywhere.
-------------

"only the paranoid will survive":)


 
The knife I bought was a Colt double edged throwing knife in the dagger style. I bought it at Corrado Cutlery, which is a fairly large operation and wouldn`t risk selling anything illegal as they`d have a lot to lose!

I was wondering if "dagger" by definition, means a double edge knife. I didn`t think it did, and I wonder if the law views it as such. You and I both know most daggers are double edged, but would a judge or a lawyer make that assumption? Or an LEO, for that matter?

Again, knife laws are the greyest of grey areas!
 
hmmm... well I thank every one for all they're help.
yes I am being trained properly on how to use a blade. I realize how dangerous it can be if you don't know how to handle one properly, though I have abslolutly no intent to ever use it unless deemed absolutly nessecary. I am a very non-violent person, I just know what is like to be taken advantage of in a situation. As stated above, I have also taken the time to start learning self defense tactics and carrying pepper spray, so something like a knife would only be an absolute last resort.
as for the double edged issue, that is what i was really concerned about. I have heard too many different stories on the legality of it, including from the place that I bought it from. I will take into mind not to go there anymore...
I have been using the blade for utilitarien purposes though. It already has a sticky build up from cutting open boxes and other marks from carving into wood.
well anyway, I guess it's back to the drawing board for me. Thank you again.


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-*Eowyn*-
 
Originally posted by TheMartialWay:


They mention "dagger", which most double edged knives would be. But Brian brings up an interesting point. I "assumed" that "posession of a dangerous weapon" was considered illegal, why else would they list it if it wasn't? But that may not be true.

Brian,
do you know for sure if "posession of a dangerous weapon" is legal or not?

Everything else they discuss is illegal,why would they throw in something that was not, just for a defination? I am very curious.
Click to expand...

Actually, you partially answer your own question. The term "dagger" is not specifically defined. Because it is not defined, a court gets to decide. after you're busted!

The LEOs I've talked to about it share my interpretation, including my local Chief of Police. Which isn't to say that they don't flinch when you open your AFCK and say "So this knife is legal, right?". (Don't try that one unless you're buddies with the LEO!)

Specific legal definitions can both help and hinder law enforcement and the judicial system. It can help by providing a clear delimiter to serve as a guideline in enforcement and in creating local regulations. It can hinder by specifically creating guidelines as to what is and isn't, for example, a switchblade.

In this example, the "assisted opening" knives, are obviously mechanically aided, spring loaded knives. But since they do not operate by "pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle ...", they are excluded from the definition of an automatic knife. So while they perform the function that the law may have been designed to prohibit (automatic spring loaded opening), they are legal because they do not specifically meet the legal definition.

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AKTI Member #A000832

"That which does not kill me just postpones the inevitable."

[This message has been edited by Brian_Turner (edited 03-02-2000).]
 
Brian,

The defination of a "Dagger" is quite vague, but it says a Dagger is "A sharp, pointy knife designed primarily for stabbing." Off hand I cant think of a single double edged knife that does not fit that criteria.

It still brings me back to my original question; is "posession of a dangerous weapon" a crminal offence or simply a descriptive term???

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Louis Buccellato
http://www.themartialway.com
Knives, Weapons and equipment. Best prices anywhere.
-------------

"only the paranoid will survive"
smile.gif




[This message has been edited by TheMartialWay (edited 03-02-2000).]
 
Eowyn,

Don't forget to check out our Tactics & Training forums. You can get input from folks that specialize in this area there.

And welcome to BladeForums!
smile.gif


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Dave
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If at first you don't succeed, go buy a knife.
 
If you're over 21, I would look into getting a Concealed Weapon Carry permit. I know in some places, it's next to impossible to get one but you never know. The main requirement is a reason to carry weapon, knife, gun, etc., as well as a certified safety course. If you can get a permit, I'd suggest a pistol to back up your pepper spray and knife. Remember, if you seriously need a knife, a gun would be better. Even though it is a last resort tactic, it seems to me in various studies and such, that you are less likely to use the gun than a knife. Also, a lot of criminals may take a chance against a knife, especially in the hands of a woman, than a gun. Not to be rude or sexist, but women are more at risk.


Oh, and a concealed weapon permit will help in court, even if you only carry a knife and end up using it.
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Riley
Do it right,or not at all.

[This message has been edited by Riley (edited 03-02-2000).]
 
Welcome in ! I would add my vote to a course in self defense and learning specifically how to use the blade. As far as your choice
could be a problem with the "double edge" - I'm told that even in TEXAS - sharpening the "false edge" of a hunting knife or combat knife like the old Ka-Bar USMC makes it one sick bird -illeagle! even with training and confidence in your knife - watch your back!

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Riley -

IL does not have provisions for civilian CCW permits.

Possession of a dangerous weapon is a descriptive term, not a criminal offense.

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AKTI Member #A000832

"That which does not kill me just postpones the inevitable."
 
In the area of knives, I would agree with the above recommendations and find something smallish that can be passed off for utility. IMHO, a Small Sebenza would be the easiest to defend. "Sebenza means "work," Your Honor. It's a WORK knife. I used it because it's all I could reach when I was fearing for my life as I was being beaten furiously in the head....." Never mention to ANYONE (even your best friend) that you are carrying for defense or "protection." This can and probably WILL come back to bite you. All my knives are utility knives or tools. Period. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Even my AFCK. "Here is a Benchmade catalog, Your Honor, See.... AFCK stands for Advanced Folding CAMP Knife."

Remember, if you "flash" your knife to scare someone, or pull it when you aren't in mortal danger, YOU are the one escalating the situation to the use of deadly force.

Alternative methods of self defense:

There are several good Ju-Jitsu schools in Chicago and the surrounding area. I can't think of a better "art" for a small person to study.

Good groundfighting skills are a must in anyones self defense regime.

Growing up in Texas, I had to learn to fight hard and fast, it's hard to run in boots!
(My weight doesn't help either!)

The best advice I can give, however, is get politically pro-active and lobby for and against laws as you see fit. Vote for those who believe the way you do. Screw the extra 5 cent tax he passed last year, if he likes guns and knives, is tough on crime, is against x,y, and z, but for a,b, and c, then elect him! Learn to debate in a sane, rational, and logical manner and convince your friends and family that you are correct in your belief system. Get them to vote with you.
 
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