Help with making my first knife

D

D2whiz

Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
69
Hey bladeforums im a 15 year old, soon to be eagle scout trying to make my first fixed blade. I have no experience, limited tools and a big plan...
But I need your help.
As of now I have a preliminary design, and mock ups of my knife done, they're all done by hand, and wont be ever done in CAD. Also I've made a cardboard mock up (to make sure everything is the right size)
But now im stuck. I know I need to get some steel (im going to use 3/16" thickness ) but I have no clue what type to get. I think id rather work with a high carbon, but D2, 3V, and niolox also sound good. So, can I have a bit of input on what type I should use?


I have limited experience so id like to keep complications to a minimum(AKA NO forging/little heat treatment) and Id also like to have a high quality knife.

Thanks, D2 whiz
 
Welcome to bladeforums.

I'm no expert on this subject but I can say that you're probably going to want to go with a simple, carbon steel. Going with something high end and exotic can seem like fun at first but you'll probably get a bit overwhelmed trying to grind, finish and heat treat it. I would go with something like O1 or 1080. I haven't used 1080 before but have heard grind things about it. I have made a few knives in O1 and I'm very satisfied with how it performs and how easy it is to work with.

I noticed you said "little heat treatment". What exactly does that mean? The last thing you want to do is cut corners when heat treating if that's what you're referring to.
 
Welcome to Bladeforums!

Please take a few minutes to look around to get a better idea of where things are here. Custom & Handmade is for completed knives, especially of experienced knifemakers. Shop Talk is for discussing how to make those knives, so I moved your thread there.

An absolute encyclopedia of threads on making knives is here:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...reads-All-The-Good-Info-You-Want-In-One-Place
 
Welcome to Shop Talk

Congratulations on your accomplishments.

Good work on doing your sketches and mock-ups.

Post pics of them and we may have some comments before you get too far.

Also consider 1/8" material, especially if you are using hand tools

You can ship it out for HT at Texas knifemakers supply
consider
http://newjerseysteelbaron.com/shop/cpm-154cm/


The Count's Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V30

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than a 60 year old machinist
We have members worldwide, you may have a local supplier, hammerin or helpful neighbour.
Please join our community and fill out your profile with location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment and hobbies so we get a sense of where and who you are.

Look at the threads stuck to the top of the page.

The basics in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF-Right Click and Save http://www.2shared.com/document/hk4wQruA/Absolute_Cheapskate_Way_to_Sta.html
http://www.prepperlinks.net/uploads/9/0/4/0/9040002/making_simple_knives.pdf
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3622507/Jones-Scott-Jonesy-Absolute-Cheapskate-Way-to-Start-Making-Knives


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E. Apelt http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=694673

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?8og1ix21j9dcz4n

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?02ra4do6xyzayeq

Bob Egnath how to http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9435307&postcount=43

BladeForums - E-books or Google books http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203

Books I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
Clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive.

Knife Design:
Think thin. Forget swords, saw-tooth spines, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife.

Start with a drawing and show us, we love to comment on photos.
Then make a cardboard cutout template & draw in handles, pins and such.
Use playdough to shape a comfortable handle, good handles are not flat.

How to post a photo
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...AL-Displaying-your-photographs-on-BladeForums

Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings, Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203

Bob Engnath Patterns in a PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?qgx7yebn77n77qx


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith - A modern book with colour photos - forging - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF Http://www.archive.org/download/elementarymachin00palmrich/elementarymachin00palmrich.pdf

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF http://ia700309.us.archive.org/6/items/completepractic00rosegoog/completepractic00rosegoog.pdf
Right Click and save link as.
It’s being reprinted now if you prefer paper books

The $50 knife Shop
This book has a great title, but is NOT gospel. It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

Forget the Goop Quench BS, Even back when they used whale oil, it was still liquid oil.
Use a commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type;
Grocery store canola oil works for some steels like 1084.

Junkyard steel requires skill and experience to identify and heat treat it properly.
Forget Lawnmower blades and railroad spike, start with a new known steel.
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply, and quench in Canola.

Cable damascus is an advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but 2x72” belt grinders free plans are now on the web.


Videos

Don't be this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEOTtslHARQ

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days. http://www.archive.org/download/gov.ntis.ava08799vnb1/ava08799vnb1_512kb.mp4

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days. http://www.howtomakeaknife.net/FreeStuff/SafetyVideo.wmv

Many knifemaking videos are available, some better than others.

The best beginner videos I have seen:
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic, but more advanced-with inlays, machine stitching)

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
Use a piece of known steel, not a file. This as an example of doing it by hand with few tools.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.
Be sure to look at the other titles I mentioned too - spend some time searching.

Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/499...femaking_Basics_-_Make_a_Mora_Bushcraft_Knife

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

See a list of videos for rent and read the reviews, Some are good, some bad, expect to wait weeks or months

http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dec78RQsokw

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.
Forget about lawnmower blades ,files and other unknown junkyard steels.
For all the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use a known good steel.

If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, 1095, 1084
Or air quenched A2, CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, plus many others.

For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find some Eutectoid steel and quench in Canola oil.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheapest & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160

Suppliers List
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=699736

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.

Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs.
http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=bio.paulBos#
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)

FAQ's
http://www.hypefreeblades.com/faq.html

1095 is a good carbon steel, but a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment.
1095 is "Hypereutectioid" and needs very precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K
Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/673173-Working-the-three-steel-types

If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 or CPM-s35vn and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 because of HT minimum charges.

(Darrin Sanders now offers HT on single blades in oil hardening steels)

Quenchants for Oil hardening steel
Forget the Goop Quench and Motor oil.

Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type;
The best explanation and classification oil speeds I've seen
http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php?28197-Hardening-II-Quenching

Grocery store canola oil works well enough for your first knife-if you use the right steel like 1084

Brine and water are cheap, and technically correct for "water hardening" steels W1 and 1095 but a fast oil like Parks 50 or Houghton Houghto Quench K are less likely to give you broken blades
If you use water or brine, expect to hear a "tink" and have a cracked or broken blade

Glue – Epoxy
Use a new package of slow setting 30 min to 1 hour, high strength epoxy to attach blades to handles and seal out moisture.
Slow epoxy is stronger and gives you time to work with it.
Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive or blasting is best.
Ensure the surface is clean and no oil including fingerprints.
Use Acetone & Alcohol, or Blasting.
Don't' over clamp to avoid a “glue starved joint” when all the adhesive is squeezed out.
Use:
Brownell's Acraglas
West Systems G Flex
JB Weld


Grinder / Tools

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Just use 1084 instead of a file.

Stacy - 10 Tools
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1049666-Ten-Tools?p=11983527#post11983527

Photo of a nice bevel filing jig
http://www.flemingknives.com/imagesPrime/FileStation/KPicB007.jpg
Http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8486/8152684286_312b9fc8da_b.jpg


Grinders
In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential on a good grinder.
You can almost always improve tracking with more belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than you first think.

Entry Level Grinders
Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00921513000P?prdNo=3

Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qfYT_m2Tw0


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders
http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCKnifeMakingGrinders.htm


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://www.wilmontgrinders.com/Pages/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy-p-1393.html



VFD Variable Speed made simple

Step pulleys are not as cheap as you may think
Maska cast steel pulleys are good and well balanced $75 EACH here plus shaft, bearings, belt

It all adds up to about 1/2 the price of a KBAC-27D

I like direct drive with no belts using a VFD and 3 phase motor for about $200 over the price of the step pulleys with much finer control.

Yes you can get cheaper NEMA 1 VFD’s and build your own enclosure
You may find them cheaper at other retailers and on Ebay direct from china.

Wayne Coe
http://www.waynecoeartistblacksmith.com/Motors___VFDs.html

VFD-
KBAC-27D

Motor
3 phase 220v 1.5 HP motor, TEFC, frame 56 or 56C,
RPM is up to you many are happy with a 1700 RPM running at double speed.
Make sure it has a footed base for the KMG and NWG, or a C flange face mount for Bader, Bee, Wilton and GIB styles.
I get them on ebay, even with paying $80 for shipping to Canada I save $$$ on a used motor.

The 1.5 HP combination is the most common, as reported by Rob Frink
It allows you to plug into any 110vac, 15 amp outlet.
A 2 HP motor requires a 220vac input.

There are cheaper VFD units like the TECO, but the only VFD I have found that will run a 1.5 HP motor on a 110v 15 amp input is the KBAC27D

It is NEMA4, sealed from metal dust that can burnout the unit.
It has good community and company support, manuals, hook-up diagrams, photos and settings on Rob Frink’s website.

I like the fact that I can buy it from a local distributor in Canada.

Travis W reports running a 2 HP on a 110v circuit, but I haven’t tried it.

Hookup is dead simple
http://www.beaumontmetalworks.com/VS-setup.html


Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and use safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.
Goggle "Ed Caffrey lung cancer"
Wearing a mask on the top of your head doesn't count.

The minimum I would consider are silicone half masks with a P100 Filter
3M 7500
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediaw...Ox_Uev7qe17zHvTSevTSeSSSSSS--&fn=CH7500FP.pdf

and North 7700
http://www.amazon.com/North-Safety-770030L-Silicone-Respirator/dp/B002C08YCW
http://www.amazon.com/North-7580P100-P100-Particulate-Cartridge/dp/B000UH6PSE/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_b.

Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for protection against acetone and solvents.
Prefilters can snap over the main filter for longer life.
There are 3 sizes, buy one in person at a safety supplier and get it fitted.

For beards, pick one of these
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II


Searching

This Google page searches BF and works well.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

Can I get rich making knives ?
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...knife-making-worth-it?p=11980504#post11980504

V30 June 3, 2013
Darrin Sander is no longer HT blades.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1074496-I-m-no-longer-heat-treating-blades
Countavatar.jpg
 
I'm currently on my first knife, and am using 1095. Seems to be a good steel that is relatively easy to shape etc. I will be sending it out for heat treat, so don't forget about that option. All you need in tools (at least from what I'm using) is a hack saw, some files, and some sand paper. Files will do a lot I've learned. I'd recommend a small variety, and at least a couple rounded to help shape the handles.

I'm no expert, but I can tell you removing steel from a bar of 1095 wasn't that terrible with files and a hack saw. Back sand paper with a block of flat 2x4 and boom you got all you need. A couple clamps will help too. And then a drill to get the bolts in the handle, best probably to find someone with a drill press and borrow it for a day.
 
haha geez 12345678910, dont spook the poor kid.

welcome to the forum D2whiz, want to say first off congrats on the Eagle. being one myself i know the great pride in being a scout & receiving such an honor, still cant get over the fact kids are getting them at such a young age; Im one of the last Generations that had to way 6 months+ in between each ranks advancement.

But anyway, because of ease of acquiring, id go for a D2. when i first started out making knives i used spent horse rasps, you can pick them up CHEAP at your local swap meets, yard sales, flea markets or even a local rancher who just throws them away. the nice thing rasps is that they are already hardened & generally dont need to be heat treated when the knife is complete, as long as you keep the grind at a low temp.I still make rasp knives for my shop when im around & for friends & i use a wet grinder or sander with a water flow system.

as far as high carbon, it would be a good starter knife to temper because it is generally easy to temper, you can youtube the process.



IN SHORT:
Congrats
D2, from horse rasps/files
grind @ low temp= no need temper
High carbon, easy temper- youtube on how to

Hope this helps, good luck & keep us posted on the knife progression!

-MN
 
MNofUSN, I am not sure where you get your D2 rasps, but I have never heard of any ( they are simple high carbon steel at best, and often mid carbon with case hardening). I can't say that any of the other info on them not needing HT is good either.

D2whiz, Welcome to Shop Talk.
I would recommend a simple carbon steel like 1080. It is easy to file, and can be heat treated rather easily by most anyone who has the equipment.
I will guess that your biggest hurdle will be taking your time, and the lack of tools. The sticky "How to Instructions for Making a Knife" will walk you through the basics.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/694673-How-to-instructions-for-making-a-knife

Once the blade is ready for HT, I will gladly do the HT for you, or some local Chicago maker may offer you to come to their shop and do it with you.

I would post your sketches and mock-ups, and see if some steel ( maybe profiled to your shape) will be volunteered for you.
Stacy E. Apelt, FSA Scot, Eagle scout 1962.
 
Hey man, welcome.

I see you're in the Chicago area; whereabouts? I'm in the North suburbs. Doesn't seem to be many of us around here. I started making knives a few months back, so I was in your position not too long ago.

I'd be willing to part with some 1/8" 1084 and would do the heat treating for free to help you out with that part. Can't guarantee absolute perfect results, as it's using a really simple propane forge and a household oven, but it'll make a good knife, especially for a first. I've also got some 3/16" 52100 which will make a great knife, but I don't have the setup for a proper heat treat on that just yet. I don't recommend using anything else other than a simple carbon steel.

I'd offer some use of my "shop" as well, but my life's been far too hectic to get more than a couple of hours in every week myself for the past couple of weeks, and the next month or so isn't looking much more promising. At the very least, I could help you profile the thing out (or do it myself) I suppose to save you some time there. Best to make the rest of it by hand on your first anyways :P

Post up the sketches and mock-ups here, and feel free to send me the CAD file.
 
Ok so here are my sketches, and a quick mock up with cardboard
cf56773ad9c411e2a7d422000a9e0846_7.jpg

fd812934d9c411e28a5c22000a1f8acf_7.jpg

Obviously these are bad quality cell camera images, but this is my basic idea of the knife. 7.25" Overall, A 3.25 inch blade, and a four inch skeletonized handle (3/16 inch thick scales- possibly Micarta or Hawaiian Koa). It is based off of the Chris Reeve professional soldier, and Gerber LMF II.
IMG_0772.JPG


Weebus- South Suburbs, and thanks for the offer but Id rather buy my own Steel, but when the time for heat treating comes, I might just have to stop in!
Bladesmth- Thanks!! Ill definitely check out the stickies
MNofUSN- thanks for the tips on Blade material. Tempering sounds fun, so I might just go with 1095 and learn that part of the process as well
Kailand09- This is pretty much what Im going to do:thumbup:
12345678910- Holy cow thanks for the wealth of info!!:D
 
D2Whiz, I would stay away from 1095 if you intend on heat treating it yourself with a simple forge.
1095 requires some pretty intense temperature control for it to come out well.
1084 or 1080 would be much easier to heat treat.
Definitely start thin! Makes filing much easier.
Best of luck!

Sean
 
Hammon172- I have a pretty extensive collection of woodworking tools (Drills, Sawzalls, Mitersaws, Table saws, hand tools, and a scroll saw)
 
D2whiz said:
Hammon172- I have a pretty extensive collection of woodworking tools (Drills, Sawzalls, Mitersaws, Table saws, hand tools, and a scroll saw)
Click to expand...

woodworking tools? Are you going to make a wooden knife?

And where are you going to get steel?
 
Hey, welcome aboard. Worry about the handles later. You need to focus on shaping and drilling the holes for you pins. You need coarse and medium file, hacksaw or angle grinder w/ cutting wheel, sandpaper, carbide drill bits. Do not use any electric grinder when working the grind of your knife, it could warp the blade.

I would reccomend going to your local scrapyard or a elder relatives garage and look for a old Nicholson bastard file. Then all you have to do is anneal it before working on it and use your oven and oil to temper it.

Come to think of it I think bladsmth has a good how to when making a file into a knife.
 
I don't have much to add to these fine gents' advice, but congrats on the Eagle Scout. I got mine 20 years ago and it has truly been one of my greatest accomplishments. I know you have heard it, and probably don't believe it, but employers do look at that and take it seriously. If you go for a job with the government it carries a lot of weight.

Cheers and welcome to the forum.
 
Personally I think it would cut better and still be plenty strong in 1/8 inch steel and then I would also go with 1084 or 1095
 
INFK- thanks, and I've got all of these supplies set up and ready to go! I'd feel more comfortable with buying a blank of steel, rather than an old rasp.
LUCYCUSTOM- thank you very much, my parents tell me time and time again!
BUCKMASTER96- Yep, high carbon steel is the direction im headed in. Its just so hard to choose:)
 
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