Help with my metal! Hardening and tempering?

[JTW]

Hey guys!!

I am new to the forum and site. Ive done a little browsing and found that this seems to be like the place to find some answers. :thumbup:

So I recently decided to start making knives. I currently work at a place where I can get plenty of scrap steel. I believe it is ASTM A 1008 cold rolled steel. Not sure on what all the numbers mean and if they are even significant. I have shaped a few patterns and I am really enjoying. However, I find myself struggling with the hardening and tempering of my steel. From the research I've done so far Ive found that this steel is "mild". With that Ive gotten 2 different opinions


1) mild steel CANNOT be hardened becasue it has to low of a carbon content

2) it can be worked with but it requires some testing

I heated my first knife yesterday and I feel like it went fairly well. I heated the steel to a bright orange color and then quenched it in used motor oil. After i cleaned the heavy carbon build up off the blade I found the blade had flaked giving it the appearance of having craters. I sanded a lot of the smaller flake spots out leaving only the some traces of the larger areas the flaked. The blade seemed to be harder. A file didnt do as much to it as it use to, and while rough polishing and cleaning the blade it chewed through several sheets of sand paper. Also, the blade seemed to have a slight edge to it just from the sanding that I have been doing. From that I would say that this particular steel can be somewhat workable. But what is really getting me is the fact that it can be bent. it wasnt super flexable and had more resistnace than before but was more springy than all the info I had read alluded to.

So after a description of my experiences, I have two main questions:

-Is my steel useable?

-If yes, than what temperature should I temper it at? (Im guessing 400-450 F)

I realize that even if this steel is workable, it still may not be ideal. I plan on using the blade for skinning and maybe some light cutting (no big chopper or anything )
this is more of my entery level beta test for knife making lol

Also sorry if this is a repost of an existing thread or question

 

[12345678910]

-Is my steel useable?

No
I wager it's actually 1018 useless as blade steel no matter what you do to it.

I also think you also overheated it

Send it out for HT - it's foolproof
pick a steel like ats34 cm154, cpms35vn


The Count's Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V24

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, you may have a helpful neighbour, or local Hammerin; but that depends on where you are. We have members worldwide.
Please fill out your profile with your location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment, hobbies.

Look at the threads stickied at the top; many are expired, but not all.

The basic process in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF-Right Click and Save
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E. Apelt

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF

http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos

BladeForums - E-books or Google books


I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:

Think thin. A paring knife slices, an axe doesn't.
Forget swords, Saw-tooth spines, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife.

Start with a drawing.
Show it to us, we love to see and comment on photos.
Then make a cardboard cutout template & draw in handles, pins and such
Then make it in wood, paint sticks are free & close to the right size.
Play with that and see if it “feels right”. If it feels right it usually “looks right“

How to post a photo on BF
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/742638-TUTORIAL-Displaying-your-photographs-on-BladeForums

See the Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings, the Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns. Google books thread

Bob Engnath Patterns compiled into a PDF


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF
Right Click and save link as.
It’s being reprinted now; you can get it for $20 ish

The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

Forget the Goop Quench.
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type; even grocery store canola oil works much better for some steels.

Junkyard steels require skill and experience to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
Forget about Lawnmower blades and start with a new known steel type.
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.

I like cable damascus, but that advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.


Videos

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available, some are better than others.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

Basic Bladesmithing
"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

The best video on leather sheath making for beginners that I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic, but more advanced-with inlays, machine stitchers..)

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
Use a piece of known steel, not a file. I just post this as an example of doing it by hand with few tools.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.
Be sure to look at the other titles too-The account index has disappeared, but search for LOTS of info. Use the keywords “LurkerLurker torrent” “knifemakerC torrent” and others
Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

You can see a list of videos and reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.
Forget about lawnmower blades ,files and other unknown junkyard steels.
For all the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use a known good steel.

If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, 1095, 1084
Or air quenched A2, CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, plus many others.

For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find some Eutectoid steel.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheapest & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160

1095 is a good carbon steel, but a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment.
1095 is "Hypereutectioid" and needs very precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel

If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 because of HT minimum charges.


You can find a list of suppliers here

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.

Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs.
http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=bio.paulBos#
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)


Quenchants for Oil hardening steel
Forget the Goop Quench.
Forget used motor oil, it's toxic and doesn't work that well.

Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type;

Even grocery store canola oil works well enough for your first knife-if you use the right steel.

Brine and water are almost free, and technically correct for W1 and "water hardening" steels but a fast oil like Parks 50 and Houghton Houghto Quench K are less likely to give you broken blades.
If you use water or brine, expect to have a cracked or broken blade.
Search the work "tink" for more info


Glue – Epoxy

Use a Fresh package of slow setting, high strength epoxy to attach blades to handles and well as seal out moisture.
Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive, blasting is best.
Ensure the surface is clean & no oil including fingerprints. Soap, Acetone & Alcohol, Blasting.
Clamp with moderate pressure= avoid a “glue starved joint” when all the adhesive is squeezed out.
These are well proven.
Brownell's Acraglas
West Systems G Flex
JB Weld


Grinder / Tools

In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential on a good grinder.
You can almost always improve tracking with more belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than you first think.

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Files can be made from unhardenable steel, or steel similar to 1095 that needs a difficult HT
Just use 1084 instead of a file.

Photo of a nice bevel filing jig

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder

Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders
http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCKnifeMakingGrinders.htm

Mapp arm – Grinder Toolrest


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy-p-1393.html



VFD Variable Speed made simple

Simplest, and cheapest are hardly ever the same, but:
Step pulleys are not as cheap as you may think
Maska cast steel pulleys are good and well balanced $75 EACH here plus shaft, bearings, belt

It all adds up to about 1/2 the price of a KBAC-27D

I like direct drive, no belts and a VFD for about $200 over the price of the step pulleys with much finer control.

Yes you can get cheaper NEMA 1 VFD’s and build your own enclosure
Or you may find them cheaper at other retailers, but watch shipping.

Wayne Coe
http://www.waynecoeartistblacksmith.com/Motors___VFDs.html

VFD-
KBAC-27D

Motor
3 phase 220v 1.5 HP motor, TEFC, frame 56 or 56C,
RPM is up to you many are happy with a 1700 RPM running at double speed.
Make sure it has a footed base for the KMG and NWG, or a C flange face mount for Bader and GIB styles.
I get them on ebay, even with paying $80 for shipping to Canada I save $$$ on a used motor.


Wiring kit
Wiring kit - for 115v VFD includes 8' 14 gauge molded cord, 2' 4 conductor wire for from VFD to motor, cable glands, wire nuts and grounding connectors $45.00 including shipping CONUS.


The 1.5 HP combination is the most common setup, as reported by Rob Frink in some thread somewhere
It allows you to plug into any 110vac, 15 amp outlet.
A 2 HP motor requires a 220vac input.

There are cheaper VFD units like the TECO, but the only VFD I have found that will run a 1.5 HP motor on a 110v 15 amp input is the KBAC27D

It is NEMA4, sealed from metal dust that can smoke the unit.
It has good community and company support, like the manuals, hook-up diagrams, photos and adjustment settings on Rob Frink’s website.

I like the fact that I can buy it from a local distributor in Canada.

Travis W reported being able to run a 2 HP on a 110v circuit, but I haven’t tried it.

Hookup is dead simple-Here's how
http://www.beaumontmetalworks.com/VS-setup.html




Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and put on safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.
Don't believe me? google "Ed Caffrey lung cancer" and see what he has to say about it.

The minimum I would consider are the 3M 7500 and North 7700 silicone half masks with a P100 Filter.
Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for protection against acetone and solvents.
There are also prefilters that snap over the main filter for longer life.

For beards, pick one of these
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II


Searching
Search works for ALL users, even unpaid users.
Try it, I’ll bet you’re not the first to ask the question here

This is a special Google page that searches BF only & works better than the forum search.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

V24 April 1, 2012
Added VFD’s made simple

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Thanks, Count.

JTW,
First, welcome to the Bladeforums, and Shop Talk.

Second, filling out your profile will tell us a bit about you and where you are. There might be a smith just down the street who could offer help....but we will never know if you don't tell us where you live.
Knowing some basic things about you and your hobbies , like whether you are a High School student or a retired machinist, will help us give answers that will be the most suitable for you.

OK, now about making knives. A knife has to be made out of Knife Making Steel. I has to have enough carbon to harden, so any steel above .6% ( 1060) will work. The best and simplest starter steel is 1084. The stickies explain all the metallurgy of why that is so, so I won't go into it here. This should help you understand:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/673173-Working-the-three-steel-types

For a steel with a bit more alloy ingredients, O-1 is a good choice. HT is a bit more complex for these steels.

For stainless steels, CPM154, and CPM S35VN are great choices. You will have to send out your stainless blades for HT....which is a good thing, since few makers have the equipment or experience to do it themselves nearly as good as the pros do.

 

[Bufford]

JTW you found the right place and the information here will get you going in the right direction. I only wish that I had the resources of this site and the internet back when I started making knives in the 1980's.

What you are doing is how many of us started out in the craft. Early in the game I did HT exactly the same way as you have by guestimating the temperature of the steel by it's color and quenching in oil. Some of those knives turned out as well as the ones I HT in my temperature controlled Paragon HT oven, some others not so good.

Do lots of research here as there is a ton of information, and ask the membership questions as you go and you will be making good knives with some practice.

Work with hand tools and power tools you have on hand and gradually build your shop. Good knives can be made with little more than a solid mounted vice with files, sandpaper and a power drill, along with plenty of patience.

Welcome to BF.

 

[lonepine]

So after a description of my experiences, I have two main questions:

-Is my steel useable?

-If yes, than what temperature should I temper it at? (Im guessing 400-450 F)

I realize that even if this steel is workable, it still may not be ideal. I plan on using the blade for skinning and maybe some light cutting (no big chopper or anything )
this is more of my entery level beta test for knife making lol

You already know that the steel you have is not suitable for serious knife making. And, you've found out that the little bit of carbon it has does enable your steel to harden a wee little bit. If you want to try using it as a knife I don't think there is any point to tempering it. It will only remove what little hardness that you were able to get. Will the blade be "brittle" or prone to breaking if dropped or bent? I don't know for sure but doubt it. IMHO what do you have to lose by completing the process and trying out your mild steel blade? You are learning from it. But get some 1080/1084 for your future knives. No sense completing those other blades you've profiled in mild steel knowing what you do now, but you can use them as templates for when you get your 1080.
Good luck and have fun.

- Paul Meske