Help with sharpening

[Lesknife]

I’ve been using and sharpening knives for 50+ years and I know with confidence that a polished edge is unnecessary.
Micro serrations or a toothy edge is sufficient for a knife and I prefer them. A micro toothy edge will last longer and cut tough or dirty inclusions in materials better that a polished edge,
A polished edge looks nice and yes it can be sharp but if you’re cutting tough, dirty materials it won’t last long. A polished edge has more surface contact with what ever it is cutting and that means more friction and drag and wear. A micro toothy edge won’t drag as much or wear as fast from abrasive inclusions. I’ve seen cutting test where this was demonstrated and it does make a difference.
Straight razors for actual shaving a beard I don’t know because I use a store bought razor. But my arm hair shaves off real easy with my micro toothy edged knives.

 

[Tsujigiri]

I’ve been using and sharpening knives for 50+ years and I know with confidence that a polished edge is unnecessary.
Micro serrations or a toothy edge is sufficient for a knife and I prefer them. A micro toothy edge will last longer and cut tough or dirty inclusions in materials better that a polished edge,
A polished edge looks nice and yes it can be sharp but if you’re cutting tough, dirty materials it won’t last long. A polished edge has more surface contact with what ever it is cutting and that means more friction and drag and wear. A micro toothy edge won’t drag as much or wear as fast from abrasive inclusions. I’ve seen cutting test where this was demonstrated and it does make a difference.
Straight razors for actual shaving a beard I don’t know because I use a store bought razor. But my arm hair shaves off real easy with my micro toothy edged knives.

I agree 100%. In retrospect, I might have interpreted the question about a "shaving sharp" edge a little too literally. I also underestimated how sensitive some people are about their more basic sharpening methods lol. There was a time when I had a similar mindset to many of the posters here, but then I got into straight razors and learned some finer details of sharpening. For a knife in real world use, however, that extra little bit doesn't make much of a difference, and micro serrations can actually be useful in some situations. I suppose it depends on if you want to use your knife or shave really well with it as a parlor trick, and also depends on your definition of shaving sharp.

not true. a all of my razors I shave with are free handed mainly because they have a spine that makes them keep a certain degree consistent so technically while free handed they don't allow for a ton of wobble if you know what your doing. while it's easy to frown or smile the razor that's a different story. b. shaving sharp is super easy off stones freehand with regular knives. c. go read Todd's website about how you can have a decent shave off a low grit stone. the serrations in the bevel have nothing to do with a comfortable shave it's the last nanometers of an edge apex that makes contact and I have literally had clean shaves using a 320 grit as well as 500 grit shaptons followed by the strop. www.scienceofsharp.com

Yeah I wasn't suggesting throwing straight razors onto an Edgepro, the spine controls the angle on an SR so you're not freehanding the angle. Those were two separate ideas. As for the rest, I really don't know where to start on this... Are you saying that the 12000+ grit finishing hones used by every master honer and custom straight razor maker are a scam and you alone know the truth?

 

[Crag the Brewer]

Also, not mentioned, but it often takes me Days to sharpen the knives I make.

Don't try to do too much all at once.

If you are getting tired, frustrated, and impatient you will make sloppy errors.

Do it in stages.

 

[chalby]

I agree 100%. In retrospect, I might have interpreted the question about a "shaving sharp" edge a little too literally. I also underestimated how sensitive some people are about their more basic sharpening methods lol. There was a time when I had a similar mindset to many of the posters here, but then I got into straight razors and learned some finer details of sharpening. For a knife in real world use, however, that extra little bit doesn't make much of a difference, and micro serrations can actually be useful in some situations. I suppose it depends on if you want to use your knife or shave really well with it as a parlor trick, and also depends on your definition of shaving sharp.

Nobody is sensitive. You made a statement that many people would consider false. It's perfectly fine to use a guided system, but it's not the only way to get a great edge.

Even if you are defining "shaving sharp" as ultra polished straight razor type edge, almost everyone sharpens freehand with a straight razor. For knives in general, I don't know anyone who polishes an edge to that extent for every day use.

 

[311climber]

Either you didn't understand what I wrote, or your definition of "shaving sharp" isn't the same as mine.



The polished edge is an indication of how much care has gone into producing a smooth and keen edge. To get that polish, you need to fully sharpen out the microscopic cuts made from the previous, coarser grits. Looking at the edge under magnification, a polished edge is more likely to be straight and consistent along the length of the blade, instead of being full of microserrations. This may not make a huge difference for a lot of cutting tasks, but if you're actually shaving hair with a straight push cut, you'll want an edge like that. Any straight razor needs to be finished to at least this level to be shave ready (and production straight razors overwhelmingly do not come from the factory with an edge that would quality as shave ready to most SR collectors).

not true. a all of my razors I shave with are free handed mainly because they have a spine that makes them keep a certain degree consistent so technically while free handed they don't allow for a ton of wobble if you know what your doing. while it's easy to frown or smile the razor that's a different story. b. shaving sharp is super easy off stones freehand with regular knives. c. go read Todd's website about how you can have a decent shave off a low grit stone. the serrations in the bevel have nothing to do with a comfortable shave it's the last nanometers of an edge apex that makes contact and I have literally had clean shaves using a 320 grit as well as 500 grit shaptons followed by the strop. www.scienceofsharp

I agree 100%. In retrospect, I might have interpreted the question about a "shaving sharp" edge a little too literally. I also underestimated how sensitive some people are about their more basic sharpening methods lol. There was a time when I had a similar mindset to many of the posters here, but then I got into straight razors and learned some finer details of sharpening. For a knife in real world use, however, that extra little bit doesn't make much of a difference, and micro serrations can actually be useful in some situations. I suppose it depends on if you want to use your knife or shave really well with it as a parlor trick, and also depends on your definition of shaving sharp.



Yeah I wasn't suggesting throwing straight razors onto an Edgepro, the spine controls the angle on an SR so you're not freehanding the angle. Those were two separate ideas. As for the rest, I really don't know where to start on this... Are you saying that the 12000+ grit finishing hones used by every master honer and custom straight razor maker are a scam and you alone know the truth?

I was just saying even kitchen knives,folders, as well as fixed blades I can get to shave hair without any issues. no I'm not saying using a 12k or higher grit stone is wrong. I'm saying someone with one of the highest power SEM microscopes more than you or I per say would like to purchase has literally proven by testing hundreds of razors and while using math to prove what is happening on a nanometer sized scale is happening with edges from everything as far as non loaded strops to loaded strops and comparing said information with edges that current shaving razor blades have in size and convexity. so in long yes alot of old techniques don't need to happen but in short going from 1k to 2.5k to 5k to 7k to 10k to 12k to 20k works as well. if u have any real interest in what's really going on with an edge that's too small to see even with basic microscopes I'd suggest you look into his site and articles for yourself. most people can't get over a this is the way its always been done concept even when it's been disproven. happy to talk once you peer into his world of information and once you realize that you'll realize that all the old hone masters you speak of never looked at an edge with probably 100 thousand dollar microscope to figure out what is actually taking place.

 

[Tsujigiri]

Nobody is sensitive. You made a statement that many people would consider false. It's perfectly fine to use a guided system, but it's not the only way to get a great edge.

Even if you are defining "shaving sharp" as ultra polished straight razor type edge, almost everyone sharpens freehand with a straight razor. For knives in general, I don't know anyone who polishes an edge to that extent for every day use.

I don't know how I can make it any easier for you to understand, try reading it a little more carefully? I never once said it's the only way to get an edge, just a very popular way to get a good one. And as I stated and then clarified again, the spine is the guided system on a straight razor. It holds the sharpening angle consistent. Is that clearer? I also literally said in the post that you quoted that this level of sharpness isn't practical for everyday use lmao

I was just saying even kitchen knives,folders, as well as fixed blades I can get to shave hair without any issues. no I'm not saying using a 12k or higher grit stone is wrong. I'm saying someone with one of the highest power SEM microscopes more than you or I per say would like to purchase has literally proven by testing hundreds of razors and while using math to prove what is happening on a nanometer sized scale is happening with edges from everything as far as non loaded strops to loaded strops and comparing said information with edges that current shaving razor blades have in size and convexity. so in long yes alot of old techniques don't need to happen but in short going from 1k to 2.5k to 5k to 7k to 10k to 12k to 20k works as well. if u have any real interest in what's really going on with an edge that's too small to see even with basic microscopes I'd suggest you look into his site and articles for yourself. most people can't get over a this is the way its always been done concept even when it's been disproven. happy to talk once you peer into his world of information and once you realize that you'll realize that all the old hone masters you speak of never looked at an edge with probably 100 thousand dollar microscope to figure out what is actually taking place.

I enjoyed that link, thanks for posting it! I actually used to work with electron microscopes, so I found it very interesting. He's not suggesting anything radical, though. His findings essentially confirm and explain what people already knew empirically about razor sharpening. He does show in his "quantifying sharp" post how a 1000 grit sharpened edge is too dull to shave well, whereas a 20k grit sharpened edge has a much smaller radius and consistent edge that can shave. If you're talking about sharpening to a lower grit and then using a pasted strop to reach the final edge, that's a crucial detail you left out of your initial post lol. That's been done for quite some time already; you're essentially convexing the edge to put a keen polish on just the very end of the edge.

 

[chalby]

I don't know how I can make it any easier for you to understand, try reading it a little more carefully? I never once said it's the only way to get an edge, just a very popular way to get a good one. And as I stated and then clarified again, the spine is the guided system on a straight razor. It holds the sharpening angle consistent. Is that clearer? I also literally said in the post that you quoted that this level of sharpness isn't practical for everyday use lmao

I understand you perfectly. It seems you're the one that is a little sensitive.

You stated that "It's very difficult to do it freehand, most of the time you see someone with a shaving sharp edge they've used a sharpening system", then tried to defend that by saying your definition of "shaving sharp" is clearly different. Now you are trying to say that those that use a freehand method of sharpening a straight razor is using the spine as a guide and therefore they are actually using a "guided system"? LMAO indeed.

 

[311climber]

I don't know how I can make it any easier for you to understand, try reading it a little more carefully? I never once said it's the only way to get an edge, just a very popular way to get a good one. And as I stated and then clarified again, the spine is the guided system on a straight razor. It holds the sharpening angle consistent. Is that clearer? I also literally said in the post that you quoted that this level of sharpness isn't practical for everyday use lmao



I enjoyed that link, thanks for posting it! I actually used to work with electron microscopes, so I found it very interesting. He's not suggesting anything radical, though. His findings essentially confirm and explain what people already knew empirically about razor sharpening. He does show in his "quantifying sharp" post how a 1000 grit sharpened edge is too dull to shave well, whereas a 20k grit sharpened edge has a much smaller radius and consistent edge that can shave. If you're talking about sharpening to a lower grit and then using a pasted strop to reach the final edge, that's a crucial detail you left out of your initial post lol. That's been done for quite some time already; you're essentially convexing the edge to put a keen polish on just the very end of the edge.

read this one. https://scienceofsharp.com/2015/07/09/its-too-big-of-a-jump/

hey says how he uses a 325 dmt for a wonderful shave because in all his research anything over 4k is pretty much useless. while a 20k will create a keener edge, it will get destroyed with beard hair because it's such a fine edge. he strops with a metal polish compound to take and put a slight convexing on the edge from 325 grit or the 4k finish to create a great shaving edge. of course you can strop a 30k edge like they have been doing for hundreds of years but he is pretty much saying you don't need to and we waste time doing it because the strop even bare convexes that fine edge making it suitable to follicle abuse. check this one after if u like to read. https://scienceofsharp.com/2016/04/14/simple-straight-razor-honing/ it's his basic sharpening technique for razors and he pretty much uses a 1200 grit dmt to finish and says 4k is about the finest edge you need. I've been straight razor shaving for about 9 months everyday to every other day and of course lots of methods work for sharpening for a decent shave. he's one of the only guys I know who have made a series of documents looking at what's actually happening at the edge with as much detail and understanding visually and not just by the feel of a shave. feel is honestly a great way to know what's working but for hundreds of years guys knew something to work but didn't know the magic as to why.... hell people used to think and still swear that jnats break down as you grind on them. his research says that they don't. sometimes the ones who just believe in magic cause it's the way it was always done can't believe that there is truly anything better or different that will work as good. as they say there's more than one way to skin a cat. ymmv or anything else, what works works right? I don't follow his sharpening technique and still get my shave on no problem. could his method get me a closer smoother shave? probably.