Helping Younger Scouts

[neilioli]

Hello,

I'm pretty sure most people on these forums aren't Scouts, but you do know about knives so you should be able to help me.

I'm in a fairly large Boy Scout troop that has only recently seen high membership. Right now we have ~ one hundred Scouts. This means that we have a lot (like eighty of them) of young, inexperienced Scouts. Younger Scouts aren't allowed to use knives until they earn their "Totin' Chit," a piece of paper that shows they know how to not get killed with their knives. When these kids get their Totin' Chit they don't know (excuse my German) sheisse about the knives themselves. All they know is how to be safe around them. I'm almost an Eagle scout, so I know my stuff, and I'm unofficially the resident knife person in my troop. Whenever anyone has a problem with knives, they come to me.

My troop goes to a lot of "residential camps" if you will - basically, you live in huge wall tents built on platforms (for me this isn't much of camping), sleep in bunks, piss in toilets and not holes in the ground. You stay there about a week and if you want to go out to where you have to wipe with leaves and sleep on a pad, you leave the camp and go into the deep woods for a day.

The problem with this is that all of these residential camps have gift shops. As stated before, these young Scouts don't know anything about knives, only knife safety. Guess what? The Boy Scouts only sell their own knives! These kids go to the gift shops and buy the Boy Scout knives for ten times what they're worth. Guess what else? Boy Scout knives are complete drek. If you were to tap a sewing needle on a quarter, that would be the sound of one of those knives locking. I've seen the blades break, the locks fail - these knives hold an edge for like three minutes of use at best.

How in the hell do I get eleven-year-old Scouts to stop buying crappy gift shop knives for insane prices?

I'd like to recommend a specific knife to these little kids but all the knives I know and own are waaay too big and scary for their parents to allow.

So basically, I'm asking for a durable knife that has a decent price and doesn't look like it would be wielded by a serial killer or a Navy SEAL to recommend to these kids for general Scouting-purposes. I'm also asking if and how I can deter eighty eleven-year-olds from cheap knock-off knives that "look cool." I hate seeing younger Scouts getting ripped off and potentially put in harm's way because their knife's lock doesn't work half the time. I once had a Timber Rattlesnake in my tent and it was my knife and only my knife that allowed me to kill the thing before it bit me or my tent mate. Because the lock actually opened, I got to stab the thing through the head and pin it to the ground while it convulsed.

Thanks!

- Neilioli

 

[9blades]

Eleven was only a couple years ago for me, get them Swiss Army Knives. A Hunter or Tinker would be excellent, maybe one of the alox models for something more stout. Victorniox has several models with the BSA emblem on the handles. Voice your concern to your troop leader, and ask about doing a group buy, or simply ask him if you can speak about it at the next meeting. Stress that they're safer, and in the long run cheaper....they're pretty darn affordable. Base models sak's can be had for $30 easily.

Welcome to blade forums, Neilioli!
Kirby

 

[excalibur21]

I have no idea how to fix the them buying crappy knives problem, maybe shoot it up the chain of command that you feel they should offer better knives?

I suggest the same knife I bought my brother for his first knife.

A buck 110.

Or the smaller 112. If the size is an issue.

A Mora Companion in bright orange/darkblue/green/red is also a good bet. That's what our local "scout like association" Wilderness School offers for sale.

But then, I've carried a ka-bar since I was 12 so, I don't know haha.

 

[Quiet]

Welcome to the Board. I'm an Eagle, and earned my Totin' Chip back in the day myself! Honestly, your best bet is to have a talk with their parents, and convince them that something like a Swiss Army Knife (SAK around here) would be their best bet. Plenty of tools, allowed at any Scout camp (I worked at multiple camps and also attended the Jambo twice, '93 and '97 respectively) and they are quality made tools. Perhaps some folks here could suggest something from Case, but the fact is, a SAK will be more than enough. I still to this day have my SAK that carried me through my entire Scouts career.

Back when I was in, Wenger (if I recall correctly) made the BSA knives in use/sold at that time. Who makes them now? Probably some cheap crap. Tell the parents of the younger guys to go to Wal-Mart or Target and get 'em a Cadet Alox, or one of the larger ones like a Pioneer or Camper.

 

[mete]

The Scandinavian companies , Helle etc make "scout knives " which are simple sheath knives but with a guard for extra safety.
If you think a folder is better than that get one of the Swiss knives .

 

[glennbad]

Part of growing up is discovering cool things, and sometimes making questionable purchases. When I took our pack to resident camp, they had money to spend at the scout store, and bought all kinds of things they probably didn't need. If they are willing to blow their parent's money on a meh knife, at least they are spending the money on that instead of a Mario video game. They will also learn about the quality of products.

SAK's are a good idea. They stand up better to the elements, such as someone leaving the knife in their pocket as they jump into the lake, LOL! As an aside, when I was a den leader in Cub Scouts, I worked directly with the boys in my den on their Totin chit. It's not always practical, but I bought used CubScout knives (the old school ones) off that auction site and cleaned them up so the boys could use them while learning knife safety (when they were ready to handle them, of course). Once the boys earned their chit, I let them keep the knives they were using. The money spent on them was small tradeoff for the look on the boys' faces when I told them they could keep the knives (with the parents permission, of course). You could send the idea down to the den leader level (I assume this is Cubs if they don't have their chit yet, but if it isn't, you could float the idea to the parents and work with them to purchase the "proper" knife.

 

[neilioli]

The Scandinavian companies , Helle etc make "scout knives " which are simple sheath knives but with a guard for extra safety.
If you think a folder is better than that get one of the Swiss knives .

I own a few fixed blades - I even built myself a massive, full-tang fixed-blade at my uncles's metalshop in Israel. The problem is that fixed blades are an awful choice for new Scouts because a lot of the residential camps don't allow sheath and fixed-blade knives. As an older Scout, I can get away with it - but younger Scouts would burn for bringing a fixed blade almost anywhere.

Part of growing up is discovering cool things, and sometimes making questionable purchases. When I took our pack to resident camp, they had money to spend at the scout store, and bought all kinds of things they probably didn't need. If they are willing to blow their parent's money on a meh knife, at least they are spending the money on that instead of a Mario video game. They will also learn about the quality of products.

SAK's are a good idea. They stand up better to the elements, such as someone leaving the knife in their pocket as they jump into the lake, LOL! As an aside, when I was a den leader in Cub Scouts, I worked directly with the boys in my den on their Totin chit. It's not always practical, but I bought used CubScout knives (the old school ones) off that auction site and cleaned them up so the boys could use them while learning knife safety (when they were ready to handle them, of course). Once the boys earned their chit, I let them keep the knives they were using. The money spent on them was small tradeoff for the look on the boys' faces when I told them they could keep the knives (with the parents permission, of course). You could send the idea down to the den leader level (I assume this is Cubs if they don't have their chit yet, but if it isn't, you could float the idea to the parents and work with them to purchase the "proper" knife.

As I recall from my time as a Den Chief, Cub Scouts earn the "Whittlin' Chit" which only permits use of a knife under direct adult supervision. When the Cubs become Scouts, they lose all knife permissions and have to earn the Totin' Chit to use a knife.

I'm thinking of recommending Victorinox "Recruit" knives. I don't have much experience with Swiss Army knives, however; my next door neighbors are Swiss immigrants and I take care of their cat when they're off in Switzerland. My payment usually involves cash and a Swiss army knife because they know of my love of knives. From my limited use of Swiss Army knives, they seem good enough for practical Scout use. The "Recruit" model is small enough to have a very affordable pricing and they don't look scary or confusing, rather; perfect for Scouting activities.

The problem with Swiss Army knives are the lack of a lock. Last year I witnessed a young Scout attempt to stab a tennis ball with a non-locking knife (young Scouts do this a lot when they get knives). I'm sure you could guess that he cut the entire length of his palm. My first-aid skills came in use then. Put pressure on the wound.

Things like that aren't rare occurrences. It's even happened to me when I was young (and I knew a lot about knives then), I had gotten a blue multi-tool with a non-locking knife and was trying to cut a LEGO piece (don't know why?) and ended up cutting my entire thumb lengthwise and then running down my stairs, shaking blood everywhere and screaming like a banshee.

 

[Quiet]

I own a few fixed blades - I even built myself a massive, full-tang fixed-blade at my uncles's metalshop in Israel. The problem is that fixed blades are an awful choice for new Scouts because a lot of the residential camps don't allow sheath and fixed-blade knives. As an older Scout, I can get away with it - but younger Scouts would burn for bringing a fixed blade almost anywhere.

I was just about to respond with this. I remember plenty of times some of the senior camp leadership at my summer camps taking a boy aside to have him remove a fixed blade he was wearing.

 

[glennbad]

Kids shouldn't need a lock on a blade if they are taught the proper use of a knife. That sounds like the same discussions we have here regarding slip joints and locking knives. I suppose, regardless, boys will be boys, but I don't recall any serious cut accidents during my time as a leader, and trust me, we had some wild kids in our pack.

 

[amg137]

I'd also suggest a swiss army knife, but only if the scouts have been given proper instruction on how to use knives - and slipjoints in particular. Without a lock to protect them, they need to be aware of the proper technique and the limitations of such a knife. There's no chance of someone (at a scout camp anyway) interpreting it as a "weapon," and it's capable of everything they are likely to need to do at camp.

If you're interested in locking knives, there are a multitude of options. Kershaw has many nice offerings, including the Skyline, Blur, Leek, and Shallot (all USA made, I think). They also have a number of nice china-made offerings, including the Cryo series and thermite.

Alternatively, the Opinel #8 is a great option. Traditional, non-threatening design, 2-handed opener (but with a lock), cuts like a laser, and is available in both carbon and Sandvik stainless steel for under $15. They're all but impossible to beat at that price point. Now that I think about it, this is probably my #1 recommendation.

 

[neilioli]

I'd also suggest a swiss army knife, but only if the scouts have been given proper instruction on how to use knives - and slipjoints in particular. Without a lock to protect them, they need to be aware of the proper technique and the limitations of such a knife. There's no chance of someone (at a scout camp anyway) interpreting it as a "weapon," and it's capable of everything they are likely to need to do at camp.

If you're interested in locking knives, there are a multitude of options. Kershaw has many nice offerings, including the Skyline, Blur, Leek, and Shallot (all USA made, I think). They also have a number of nice china-made offerings, including the Cryo series and thermite.

Alternatively, the Opinel #8 is a great option. Traditional, non-threatening design, 2-handed opener (but with a lock), cuts like a laser, and is available in both carbon and Sandvik stainless steel for under $15. They're all but impossible to beat at that price point. Now that I think about it, this is probably my #1 recommendation.

My problem is not that Scouts and Leaders see the knives as threatening. It's the parents.

I'm fifteen, and my parents still put up a fight when I try to buy a new knife. The struggle is even worse for eleven-year-olds.

To boot, most of the parents in our troop don't actually know anything about Scouts, never been to a meeting or camping - so they really freak out about knives. At least my parents know I'm not stupid, that I've received training, etc.

 

[The cow]

Lesson 1: anything bought at a gift shop makes "hecho en china" quality look like a $3000 swiss watch.

Point them to very popular inexpensive knives. SAK and Opniel are very good non-threatening knives that can be had for under 30 bucks. Since they're camping, I'd recommend a Mora. You can pick them up for under $20 bucks and are reasonably tough for their price.

 

[amg137]

My problem is not that Scouts and Leaders see the knives as threatening. It's the parents.

I'm fifteen, and my parents still put up a fight when I try to buy a new knife. The struggle is even worse for eleven-year-olds.

To boot, most of the parents in our troop don't actually know anything about Scouts, never been to a meeting or camping - so they really freak out about knives. At least my parents know I'm not stupid, that I've received training, etc.

Hmm... Perhaps you could try to solve the issue with some parental education? You could hold a "knife safety and education" meeting, where the presence of both scouts and parents is requested. Give them a brief introduction to knife safety and use, what makes a quality knife, and the hazards of cheaply made knives. It'd give the scouts some of the training they need to earn their totin' chit, give the parents some peace of mind, and make everyone involved a little smarter about their knife purchases.

Seems like it'd be worth suggesting to the troop leader, at least.

 

[vwbigmike]

I second the Opinel, I wasn't even thinking about it until ^^mentioned above. I was thinking Leatherman multitool. I never did like a "swiss army" style knife. It never felt like I could do anything with it in Scouts.

BTW... I'm not going to lecture here, but as an Eagle scout, I'd try to represent BSA a little more tastefully, drop the inappropriate language and arrogance with your posting. You're representing a time-honored tradition that holds with it esteem and decency. You seem to want to be a leader for these younger boys, I commend that, so IMO you should conduct yourself appropriately, even if it is on some knife forum.

Again I'm not trying to lecture, just a little advice from an older Eagle.

Let's not forget, "A Scout is reverent"

 

[neilioli]

Hmm... Perhaps you could try to solve the issue with some parental education? You could hold a "knife safety and education" meeting, where the presence of both scouts and parents is requested. Give them a brief introduction to knife safety and use, what makes a quality knife, and the hazards of cheaply made knives. It'd give the scouts some of the training they need to earn their totin' chit, give the parents some peace of mind, and make everyone involved a little smarter about their knife purchases.

Seems like it'd be worth suggesting to the troop leader, at least.

Problem with this is that there's like eighty of these younger kids, making one hundred and sixty parents. Most of them put their kids in Scouts so that their kids can have a good, father-like influence on them because the parents are off working all day. It would really be hard to get the parents to attend even if they weren't all at work.

 

[neilioli]

I'd also suggest a swiss army knife, but only if the scouts have been given proper instruction on how to use knives - and slipjoints in particular. Without a lock to protect them, they need to be aware of the proper technique and the limitations of such a knife. There's no chance of someone (at a scout camp anyway) interpreting it as a "weapon," and it's capable of everything they are likely to need to do at camp.

If you're interested in locking knives, there are a multitude of options. Kershaw has many nice offerings, including the Skyline, Blur, Leek, and Shallot (all USA made, I think). They also have a number of nice china-made offerings, including the Cryo series and thermite.

Alternatively, the Opinel #8 is a great option. Traditional, non-threatening design, 2-handed opener (but with a lock), cuts like a laser, and is available in both carbon and Sandvik stainless steel for under $15. They're all but impossible to beat at that price point. Now that I think about it, this is probably my #1 recommendation.

Lesson 1: anything bought at a gift shop makes "hecho en china" quality look like a $3000 swiss watch.

Point them to very popular inexpensive knives. SAK and Opniel are very good non-threatening knives that can be had for under 30 bucks. Since they're camping, I'd recommend a Mora. You can pick them up for under $20 bucks and are reasonably tough for their price.

I'll probably recommend the Opinel to them. They look like good knives, have good reviews, et cetera. Also the wood handles. I've observed that wood handles make knives look way less threatening. Absolutely no idea why.

Hopefully they'll stop buying $40 knock-offs and cutting their hands with slipjoints. I always feel a little let down when someone gets hurt with a knife when it could easily be avoided, especially as the "knife guy" in my troop and/or when they're new Scouts that are under my command.

Hopefully none of these guys wake up with a rattlesnake in their tent.

 

[Bob W]

Swiss Army Knives are great. Not only are they good cutters but they can be very affordable too, and the included utility tools certainly aim towards the motto of Be Prepared. Plus the kids aren't likely to flick them around or throw them at trees.

Even an average Gerber knife from WalMart is better than the crap I've seen lately with the BSA logo. The LST and EZ Out Jr are two that come to mind. The Gator would be a better choice for older scouts with larger hands.
Buck has many similar models in the same price range, such as the BuckLite and Bantam models.

I'm thinking of recommending Victorinox "Recruit" knives.

That's an excellent choice. Picked mine up for about $13 at a large home improvement chain store.

 

[EChoil]

I think you may be going about it the wrong way. Especially if you have pull with the Boy Scouts organization.

It sounds as though the solution might be to have BSA re-spec and bid their knife.

I have to assume there is licensing somewhere in the official "Boy Scout Knife." Either someone lost their panties at the negotiating table last time the dice were thrown or someone just didn't give a damn and selected high bidder(s).

If so, and if the knives are as bad as you say, they need to re-negotiate the knife contract(s) ASAP and get a good company to build a quality knife for the kids. Bring in the consultants, do focus groups, hire Oprah...whatever they need to do.

Maybe there is something I'm not aware of that won't allow that.

I wasn't in scouts long; I had an adventurous dad. But I did have the knife. I think overall a Boy Scout knife is a good first knife for a kid. If it's a bad knife, make a good one.

 

[The Aflac Duck]

How about an ESEE Izula? They are plenty tough, but not too big. Plus, they come in pretty colors

 

[Faiaoga]

I suggest that parents be educated via a letter home, and I think that a group purchase of useful knives can help families save money. Some parents may think that a big, military issue knife is helpful to the young scout but your letter can point out better, lower cost options.