Hew would have thought?

[Agent_H]

I’ve been reading some great threads here on hewing and I am interested in setting up an axe. Just wasn’t sure if I wanted to post this in those threads and derail the discussion to make it about my questions.
A recent one I am thinking of is rjdankert’s thread:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1375426-hewing-a-white-oak-6-quot-x6-quot
So, a couple of questions.
I have one that has been sort of “hiding” behind a stack of brush axes that I picked up maybe a year ago while goofing around on the coast. Didn’t think it was marked but was messing with it last night and think it is a Shapleigh Hardware Diamond Edge. Heel and toe are both worn but it is moderately secure on an octagonalized handle. Don’t know if that is original or if they came with that option. The handle has been fodder for borers or worms of some sort, whatever critters they were, they liked the taste of hickory.

Fun stuff. The other one is the one I am thinking of cleaning up and sharpening. It is bigger than the Shapleigh and does have markings but I haven’t figured out what they are yet. I hopped on my scale with it and it about 8# - the small scale I have only goes to 5#.

I’m posting some pictures to get some input on its overall state and some pointers on rehabilitation.

I have read Square-peg’s hewing head restore thread and the carving of his handle but I guess I still have a couple of questions or I guess what you could call operational assumptions:

The flat side should be worked smooth as possible as that is the one making the most contact with the log, to what degree should it be smoothed out? Flat filing following the whole body approach? Also, the beveled side has some pretty rough spots.
What are some solid ways to go about that?

The toe (or heel) depending on you look at it is a little rough and I am sure I can do the edge up nice but there is a larger chip that makes me wonder if there is a good way to work that out without taking that much steel off the whole thing. The chip shows on both sides, if that makes sense.

The eye needs to be filed free of mushrooming.

Is there a name for this wear/corrosion/peeling? And should it go? “Delamination?”

As far as a handle goes... I may try my hand at it using silver maple or purchase one from House Handle and cut it down some and maybe even try to steam/heat it into an offset position. 36” inches seems a little long but I have never hewn a log so what do I know. Pretty sure my first attempts won’t be as large as some of the projects/work being done in photos and videos here. Is a pick handle an acceptable substitute after careful shaping?

I've used hewing hatchets but never one this big – I’d like to though.

This one just keeps sitting on my workbench asking for attention. I've got plenty of things to occupy my time but would like to give making a beam a try and that starts with an axe I figure… and a red shirt

If nothing else, anything I hack up can be trail border/property out back or end up fire fodder. (in the same sense that pottery attempts can always become ashtrays.)

Any hewing axe specific details, impressions of the tools, input on filing clean up, edges, handle making/modifying are welcome.

I’ve read these more than several times but since I keep referring to them, here are Square_peg’s posts:

Broad axe clean up/restore
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/930575-New-(old)-broad-axe?highlight=broad+axe

Square_peg’s making a handle for his broad axe.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/935049-Making-a-broad-axe-haft?highlight=broad+axe

A timber for hewing
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1002190-A-timber-for-hewing


On a “smaller” note, I spotted this on the infamous auction site and it caught my eye. I’ve been trying to refrain from picking up new stuff until I get rid of other s but this interested me due to its size.

I think this is a cooper’s axe. Blade is about 12” long. The seller said he made the handle for it himself. Birch is what he believes it was when he carved it out – that is based messages back and forth. It has a nice offset and seems to be wedged well enough. It has a nice thin bit on it but needs some help on the edge. Any advice there is welcome.

It’s marked but I can’t make out what it says but then again I haven’t tried too hard to match it to known shapes/makers, or images. Previous owner used it on small kindling.

His listing photo:

Closer photos:

Little closer

Wedge

This one probably just needs to have the edge worked on to be put to use. You know, because I have plans to make a lot of barrels…

 

[Square_peg]

I think your broadaxe if perfectly restorable - with a lot of filing.

The back needn't have every pit removed but the whole back surface should be filed and sanded/polished/whatever until it presents a smooth accurate surface to the work. I would also file all the dings out of the bit. It's an old axe and will only be a user. You are never likely to wear it out in your lifetime so don't worry about preserving a little metal by not fully filing the bit. And it looks like you have plenty of hardened steel remaining to do this.

Haft length should 20"-30" depending on what size timbers you're hewing. If you're mostly doing 12" stuff then stay a little shorter - you'll have more control. But if you might hew 24" or larger timbers then you'll want a longer haft. Of course your haft will need to be offset so you don't bark your knuckles.

Regarding the profile of the haft, the grip should be wider than a felling axe haft but of similar thickness. This is because of the offset in the haft. It creates an imbalance that makes the haft want to rotate in your grip. Having a wider haft makes it easier to counter this rotation. I lucked out on this with my haft. I left it wide not realizing the benefit I would get from doing so. Mine is about 1-5/8" x 13/16" in the grip area. I prefer a felling axe haft to be more like 1-3/8" wide in the grip area.

I recommend a little less offset than I put in my haft (see photos in the previous links). But I think the hafts form Tennessee Hickory or House don't have quite enough offset in them.

And consider making your haft removable so you can switch if from RH to LH. Keep in mind that you'll need a 2nd haft with the opposite offset to do this.

Love your work and can't wait to see what you do with this.

 

[Agent_H]

Regarding the profile of the haft, the grip should be wider than a felling axe haft but of similar thickness. This is because of the offset in the haft. It creates an imbalance that makes the haft want to rotate in your grip. Having a wider haft makes it easier to counter this rotation. I lucked out on this with my haft. I left it wide not realizing the benefit I would get from doing so. Mine is about 1-5/8" x 13/16" in the grip area. I prefer a felling axe haft to be more like 1-3/8" wide in the grip area.

I recommend a little less offset than I put in my haft (see photos in the previous links). But I think the hafts form Tennessee Hickory or House don't have quite enough offset in them.

I appreciate your input Square_peg. Your insight there in your advice is in retrospect and actually the most valuable - the "after using it and looking back" is usually something you only get by trial and error and ends up quite a bit more objective. This is a boon for me.

Yesterday morning I helped a friend remove three of what I believe to be maple trees (maybe sugar maple but I am not sure at all about that) that unrooted on the steep bank leading to his house. They tipped over during this last windstorm. Broke the tops of two them off in a ditch. Most of the sawing was done in the ditch to break it up small enough to yank back to the road then process small enough that his kid could finish it. Didn’t use any axes on it – all chainsaw and a bow saw for a couple of pieces. Little sad I didn’t use my axe on it but it was more of a chore than pleasure. It was a mud scrabbIe for lack of better description. We cut it up large to small before I even thought of using it for a handle for something. I’m not sure its maple, it was split out where it was clear of limbs, and I’m not even sure it’s big enough to get a good handle out of.

I did snap a picture of the two pieces I brought back.

I think your broadaxe if perfectly restorable - with a lot of filing.

The back needn't have every pit removed but the whole back surface should be filed and sanded/polished/whatever until it presents a smooth accurate surface to the work. I would also file all the dings out of the bit. It's an old axe and will only be a user. You are never likely to wear it out in your lifetime so don't worry about preserving a little metal by not fully filing the bit. And it looks like you have plenty of hardened steel remaining to do this.

So, bring the entire edge up to the top of that bigger chip, maintain a flat profile from toe to heel, then work the bevel up to where it is right now – just move it back?

I taped the edge off on the flat side to get an idea of the amount that needs to be drawn back.

You are right, that is a lot of filing lol.

 

[Square_peg]

So, bring the entire edge up to the top of that bigger chip, maintain a flat profile from toe to heel, then work the bevel up to where it is right now – just move it back?


I taped the edge off on the flat side to get an idea of the amount that needs to be drawn back.

You do need to go back to the end of that chip. It needn't be a straight line and your tape looks pretty good. I like a slight curve on a broadaxe bit. I'd like to hear Old Axeman's opinion about this.

You can knock it back to your tape line with a coarse grinder. Then file. Not so much work with a good file and a sturdy vise. And you'll be glad you did it.

Regarding haft material, look for something larger. I think about a 5" diameter is a minimum. Sugar maple is fine.

 

[Old Axeman]

Either the straight line with the tape or a slight curve as SP just said will work. I would go with slight curve. I am sure you know how to grind without burning the steel, be careful. Broadaxes usually have a harder temper than the poll axe, your file might ship off. This is an ideal project to use the tradesmen stone I mentioned in another thread, and then your puck. You need haft material that is large enough to give the offset while avoiding the pith. I like a 20-24" broadaxe haft.

 

[Agent_H]

Either the straight line with the tape or a slight curve as SP just said will work. I would go with slight curve. I am sure you know how to grind without burning the steel, be careful. Broadaxes usually have a harder temper than the poll axe, your file might ship off. This is an ideal project to use the tradesmen stone I mentioned in another thread, and then your puck. You need haft material that is large enough to give the offset while avoiding the pith. I like a 20-24" broadaxe haft.

Thanks for the advice Old Axeman. I am ending up with a slight curve. And you are right about broad axes being harder than poll axes.

After a pot of coffee the other morning most of the chips were removed, overall bit shape is there, and I'm trying to blend the toe into the rest of the bit face. This thing is giving me a workout - my files as well. Trying to picture doing this in the field but maybe it's the rust layers plus being harder than axes I've filed on that is getting me. I took it down along that tape line but my more aggressive/coarser files were chipping it so it was just elbow grease with a finer one.

I opted not to use the grinder and just try it by hand. Monday afternoon I came upon a used Norton tradesman stone here and am finding that it does remove metal similar to a metal file. Very evenly in fact. I was using a little WD-40 on it then just got a bucket of water to dunk it in. It kept gumming up until I filed all the rust off then it seemed to eat at the steel. The one I picked up was used and is working great but I drove out to the Red Pig Tools yesterday to go ahead and pick up a new one - about the same as online with shipping - no label but looks the same for all intents and purposes. Had to ring really loud. I just timed it between his strikes as I could hear him working.

I miss this approach to business.

His wife came down and made the transaction then I asked if the file should be run dry. She told me to just walk up and find her husband and ask. He is a neat old character for sure. He was in his shop which is separate from his forge area. Asked him about the utility file with oil/water and he was convinced that either would be fine. He is a scythe enthusiast as well – I don’t know enough about them besides common makers, and the physical parts on them to do anything but listen. I asked him about log dogs and he drew a quick schematic on a saw bench in chalk and talked about standard ones and the benefits of articulated ones. He seemed to get a kick out of drawing it, wiping it, redesigning. When I have a need for some, I will give him my money. That might be another discussion all together.

When I mentioned that I was using the stone on a broad axe, he asked if I had seen his in the “barn”. The one he was talking about is unmarked and at least as big as the one I am working on but a different pattern. He said that he started with a hewing hatchet, found a larger one and restored it, then sold it when he found a larger one, and just repeated the process. He mentioned wanting to build a goose-wing not because he needs one but because he could… or he was pitching me lol. I don’t care if he was actually.

As far as haft material, I am wondering if I should simply order one. House and Beaver Tooth offer them but how hard is it to steam/heat them and modify the offset, even a little? There are all manner of weights, clamps, and risers here at my disposal as well as a heat gun if that would do anything. Still think a handle from raw wood is the best - I see what some of the guys here do and really am interested in that almost as much as the metal itself. I have a 1.5 year old and time is my only limiter.


Here are a couple of pictures here as those are worth more than my blah blah blah about the thing.

Wire wheel clean up

Still don’t get a read on the markings. D12?

Back

Front - different colors of steel there?

Half at a time – looks like I need to work on the less abused end now.

I'll continue to work the bit some at a time. Last night I used the Norton file on a couple of other axes – cool thing to have in the “arsenal”. Good tip there.

I do appreciate the input and advice on the process.

 

[Park Swan]

Nice progress! Love the sign, I would love check that place out next time I make it out to OR.

 

[Square_peg]

I was using a little WD-40 on it then just got a bucket of water to dunk it in.

I always keep a bucket of water handy when I'm honing an axe. Contrary to knife sharpening, I find that the stone cuts the axe better once a bit of a slurry has build up. I dip the stone periodically to wet it but I don't wipe it until I'm finished with that grit.

 

[Agent_H]

I always keep a bucket of water handy when I'm honing an axe. Contrary to knife sharpening, I find that the stone cuts the axe better once a bit of a slurry has build up. I dip the stone periodically to wet it but I don't wipe it until I'm finished with that grit.

That's what I ended up with in regards to the slurry. Wasn't sure if I was on the right track with the thing. Dry it was just gumming up and slipping off with no material removed - some of that was the fact that I didn't remove the outer rust coating before attempting it... don't know why I didn't do that like any other axe profile...

Square_peg, just noticed you mentioned using one of the Norton Stones in your restore thread but somehow I missed it until now.

Think I need to push that bevel back some?

 

[Square_peg]

Think I need to push that bevel back some?

That depends. Is it a very flat chisel-like grind? If so it's probably OK. But if it's rolled like a felling axe grind than the final edge may still be too wide.

And I think the back could use some more work. The cutting surface is on the very back of a broad axe. I would try to get that as flat as possible. It's a lot of file work but it's worth it in the end.

The change in metal color is probably where the hardened steel bit was forge welded onto the body. There's not a lot remaining on the front but if it was a lap weld there may be a considerable amount left on the back side where the cutting happens. In any case you can still get many years of use out of that axe.

 

[Old Axeman]

On the flat side lay a straight edge from toe to heel, then from bit to poll. Tell me what you see.

 

[garry3]

JB, That color change in the bit is your forge welded steel. Looking good so far.

 

[Agent_H]

I spent about an hour on knocking back the peening/filed on the back side of the poll and then flat filed the edges of the bit some.
Went out of town to the coast this weekend. Had to ask myself how many log carriers I needed…

On the flat side lay a straight edge from toe to heel, then from bit to poll. Tell me what you see.

How does that look from what can be seen here?

Toe

Heel

Not having restored a hewing axe before I am thinking of a few things as I work it over. Does normal use involve prying somewhat on the toe? I think a spot in the very center of the back and one of the bit edges can be worked to make a level lay flat from toe to heel. Filed out the eye as well. It seems better from poll to bit – either end.

A little flat filing in order?

That depends. Is it a very flat chisel-like grind? If so it's probably OK. But if it's rolled like a felling axe grind than the final edge may still be too wide.

And I think the back could use some more work. The cutting surface is on the very back of a broad axe. I would try to get that as flat as possible. It's a lot of file work but it's worth it in the end.

The change in metal color is probably where the hardened steel bit was forge welded onto the body. There's not a lot remaining on the front but if it was a lap weld there may be a considerable amount left on the back side where the cutting happens. In any case you can still get many years of use out of that axe.

The grind I have going on is a work in progress but it is very chisel-like - On purpose. Good to hear that there is still some life in it - I would like to do it right and use it.

More than anything I am enjoying the project so far. Appreciate the input quite a bit as well.

 

[Square_peg]

I kept filing and peening and filing the back until I had a solid flat surface all the way to the edge. I think that should be your goal. It's doable though it might take a couple hours. But it's worth it.

I started by flat filing the back from the edge to the eye. As soon as I a put the file to it the high and low spots immediately showed.

The low spot on the left tip is an area where the blade was slightly bent. I debated about how to deal with that. Filing it out would take too long and remove to much material. But if I heated it up to forging temperature to straighten it then I'd have to re-harden and temper the whole edge.

I decided to try to peen the edge back straight, much as one would peen the edge of a scythe. It's a cold day here in the NW, close to freezing. I didn't want to risk chipping the edge so I warmed it slightly with a propane torch. Not hot enough to temper it - just warm to the touch but not so hot that I couldn't keep my fingers on it - maybe 130°-140° F. Then I gently peened it back straight, working with the closed jaws of my vise as my anvil.

Once I got it flat I cleaned it up with some wet/dry sandpaper, taking it to 600 grit.

 

[Old Axeman]

I think what I am about to say is going to suprise you. I have had, and used many Canadian pattern broadaxes like yours. Yes, on the Canadian the back flat side should actually be flat. But that is exactly the reason it is not my favorite. I prefer the "flat" side to have a slight (very slight) arc from toe to heel and also from bit to poll. This in essense makes it a very large gouge. I have found this geometry to be the best for hewing. This is why I prefer the New Orleans pattern and the Penn. pattern. At least with the higher quality broadaxe like Beatty and Douglas ( certainly not the only two quality makers, just my personal favorites) the New Orleans and Penn. have this geometry I like.
Agent-H your broadaxe is looking very good. I want to see your hewn products since that seems to be you ultimate goal. You are going to have one fine broadaxe when you finish.

 

[Square_peg]

I prefer the "flat" side to have a slight (very slight) arc from toe to heel and also from bit to poll. This in essense makes it a very large gouge. I have found this geometry to be the best for hewing. This is why I prefer the New Orleans pattern and the Penn. pattern.

Good stuff. Thanks for sharing that.

Do you think the arc from bit to poll might be helping the axe push the trimmings off the timber - much in the way that a high centerline helps pop the chip in bucking?

And the arc from heel to toe, would that cause the broadaxe to work something like a lipped adze? You compared it to a gouge but I think the principles are similar.

I'd like to see a few pictures of what you think a New Orleans pattern broadaxe should ideally look like. If you can get some photos you're welcome to send them to me and I'll host them on my site for you to link to. Or I'll post them in this thread if you'd like.

 

[Agent_H]

I kept filing and peening and filing the back until I had a solid flat surface all the way to the edge. I think that should be your goal. It's doable though it might take a couple hours. But it's worth it.

I will focus on flattening it out via filing but I am not sure it will come out looking like yours. This one has such deep pitting I feel that it would be removing an awful lot of steel to make it completely flat.

So, in the event that the pitting can't be completely removed, at least try to make it level across both directions and smooth the transitions to/in the pitting?

Filing it last night I was just thinking that if I take the whole thing down to the base of the pitting, there might not be much left.

I'm beginning to see how much work you put into yours now, Square_peg.

 

[rjdankert]

. . .I prefer the New Orleans pattern and the Penn. pattern. At least with the higher quality broadaxe like Beatty and Douglas ( certainly not the only two quality makers, just my personal favorites) the New Orleans and Penn. . .

I wasn't familiar with the New Orleans or Pennsylvania patterns. So I looked them up. In case there is another curious putz like me out there who doeasn't know and wants to follow along, here they are along with a Canadian:

From (where else) "An Ax to Grind"

Bob

 

[Agent_H]

Thanks Bob. Pictures speak volumes!

 

[Square_peg]

I'm beginning to see how much work you put into yours now, Square_peg.

It was a lot of work even for me and I'm pretty handy with a file. I had one corner pitted pretty bad. Maybe not as bad as yours but close. I could see I would lose too much metal by filing that all the way flat. That's when I got the notion to try peening that corner back. Try it at moderate heat that won't affect the temper - like just too hot to touch. You might be surprised how much filing work it saves.

And as Old Axeman pointed out there may be some advantage to letting the corner curl away from the back slightly. I'd like to hear more about that since I don't have experience with that shape of broadaxe.