hey guys. newbie. few questions

Joined
Dec 15, 2014
Messages
7
So I'm starting out and trying knife making out. I have a simple charcoal forge with a hairdryer for a blower. So far so good on that. My questions are... how to I regulate the temp and get it hotter ( possibly to welding temp?)
Second question is about handle making. What exactly is is stabilized wood and is it absolutely necessary? Or if I just use a mineral oil or a coat of lacked wI'll that be ok?
And one last question? I tried tongs as a first project... not going to plan. Should I keep trying or just admit I need more experience first.
Thanks,
thumper
 
This will get moved into Shop Talk, I'm sure.

But my first suggestion for starting out brand new..............make a stock removal knife from scratch and focus on lines, flow, ergonomics, fit, finish and edge geometry before worrying about getting your first charcoal hair dryer forge to welding temperature. Jumping into too much too soon is asking for a laundry list of problems.

And no, coating a block of wood with mineral oil is in no way equivalent to professionally stabilized wood.

Welcome. :)
 
-first of all you should check out this website for blacksmithing questions, helped me a lot: http://www.anvilfire.com/ there are very specific hammering patterns that you need to learn for drawing out the steel. a book called 'the complete american blacksmith' was also a huge boon for me...and classes, but barring that, get some direct info, you can whack away all you want, i did too for awhile but once i picked up some techniques from real sources i improved a hundredfold overnight.

-stabilizing is the process of drawing epoxy or other sealants into wood or other materials in a vacuum. others can explain better and i believe there are tutorials on the forum. it is definitely not necessary, but it is essentially plasticizing the wood which makes it very durable. good hardwoods oiled correctly, and maintained diligently have and will last for a long time.

-the hair dryer is tough to regulate, but i have done some small forge welds with it, a couple folded spoons. they are sub ideal but it will work if you have good coal, thats something i didnt realize at first either, there are different grades of coal. i don't think my first forge using charcoal would have been hot enough.

hopefully some of the more experienced smiths will chime in. youtube is a great resource as well.
 
The Count's Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V36

Answers to a student are different than to machinist
With members worldwide, you may have a local supplier, hammerin or neighbour.
Join our community;fill out your profile with (Country, State, City), age, education, work and hobbies so we get a sense of who you are.

Basics
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-PDF
http://jubilee101.com/subscription/pdf/Tools/Making-Simple-Knives---12pages.pdf

Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=694673

Things I Advise New Makers Against-PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?8og1ix21j9dcz4n

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?02ra4do6xyzayeq
http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/cache/articles/nw1/scales1.htm
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...Wheeler-s-Steel-*-Stuck-in-the-metal-with-you
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/956343-Damascus-integral-tag-along

Bob Egnath how to http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9435307&postcount=43

BladeForums - E-books or Google books http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203

Books I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
Clear, organized, available inexpensive.


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith - colour photos - forging - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-PDF Http://www.archive.org/download/elementarymachin00palmrich/elementarymachin00palmrich.pdf

The Complete Practical Machinist-1885-PDF http://ia700309.us.archive.org/6/items/completepractic00rosegoog/completepractic00rosegoog.pdf
Right Click and save

The $50 knife Shop-not recommended
Great title, but NOT gospel.
Forging is NOT necessary; file and grind (stock removal)

"Goop Quench" is Bullsh*t
Back when they used whale oil, it was still liquid oil
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to steel type;
Grocery store canola oil works for 1084

Junkyard steel requires skill and experience to identify and heat treat
Forget Lawnmower blades and railroad spikes, start with a new known steel
Good heat treat needs accurate temperature control and full quench
Proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo is inexpensive and quench in Canola

Cable damascus is an advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but 2x72” belt grinders plans are now free on the web


Video

Don't be this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEOTtslHARQ

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it daily for 10 days http://www.archive.org/download/gov.ntis.ava08799vnb1/ava08799vnb1_512kb.mp4

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it daily for 10 days http://www.howtomakeaknife.net/FreeStuff/SafetyVideo.wmv

Many videos are available, some better than others

The best beginner videos I have seen:
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
Paul Long's sheath work & videos are recommended, but advanced-with inlays, tooling and machine stitching

Green Pete's Free Video
Make a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat
Use a piece of known 1084 steel, not a file. This as an example of doing it by hand with few tools
"Green Pete" posted it free
Be sure to look at the other titles I mentioned too – search knifemaking torrents

Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/499...femaking_Basics_-_Make_a_Mora_Bushcraft_Knife

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

Videos for rent,read the reviews, Some good, some bad, expect to wait months and there have been no new videos in years.
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking


Knife Design:
Think thin, small, simple and fixed
Forget swords, 1/4” thick stock, saw-teeth, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife

Look at hundreds of photos
Lloyd Harding drawings, Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203

Bob Engnath Patterns PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?qgx7yebn77n77qx

http://knifemaking.altervista.org/index_disegni_en.html

Start with a drawing and post it before you work on steel, we love photos and can comment before you start
French curves, graph paper and erasers are vital tools
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bHFtVNs9tWA/TEj5Quiq1ZI/AAAAAAAAAI0/rn2EoHoXpVc/s1600/The+French+Curve.jpg

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1147466-How?p=13120810#post13120810

Then a cardboard cutout template & with handles, pins and such
Use playdough to shape a handle, good handles are not flat

How to post a photo
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...AL-Displaying-your-photographs-on-BladeForums



Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dec78RQsokw

Nick Wheeler- Hand sanding 101 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I4x4QLpfnk

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes is useless for knives
Buy new known 1/8” annealed blade steel
Forget lawnmower blades ,files, railroad spikes and other unknown junkyard steels
For the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use known good steel
You will spend more money on sandpaper or soda pop than you will for steel

If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, 1095, 1084
Or air quenched A2, CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, Elmax plus many others.

For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find Eutectoid steel and quench in Canola oil.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheap & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160
His telephone service is better than his website.

Suppliers List
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=699736

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating $10 or $15 for perfect results

Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs
http://www.buckknives.com/about-knives/heat-treating/
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)

FAQ's
http://www.hypefreeblades.com/faq.html

1095 is a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment to HT themselves
1095 is "Hypereutectioid" and needs precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K
Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/673173-Working-the-three-steel-types

If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 CPM-s35vn Elmax, and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 due to minimum charges


Quenchants for Oil hardening steel
Forget Goop Quench and Motor oil

Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type
Explanation and classification oil speeds
http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php?28197-Hardening-II-Quenching

Grocery store canola oil works well -if you use the right steel like 1084

Brine and water are cheap for "water hardening" steels W1 and 1095, but use fast oils Parks 50 & Houghton Houghto Quench K
If you use water or brine, expect broken blades

Hot steel beats plastic, Don't quench in plastic pail

Glue – Epoxy
Use new slow setting 30 min high strength epoxy to attach handles and seal out moisture
Slow epoxy is stronger and gives you time to work
prep, measure, mix are key in gluing.
Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive or blasting is best
Ensure the surface is clean including fingerprints, wear vinyl or nitrile gloves
Use Acetone or Blasting
Don't over-clamp.A “glue starved joint” is weak

West Systems G Flex http://www.westsystem.com/ss/g-flex-epoxy/
Find it locally http://www.westsystem.com/ss/where-to-buy/
Brownell's Acraglas
JB Weld-leaves a grey line


Grinder / Tools

Hand Tools
You can do it by hand with files and abrasive like the Green Pete video.
Use 1084 instead of a file, spheroid annealed steel is butter soft

Stacy - 10 Tools
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1049666-Ten-Tools?p=11983527#post11983527

Filing jigs
http://www.flemingknives.com/imagesPrime/FileStation/KPicB007.jpg
Http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8486/8152684286_312b9fc8da_b.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9iNDRwwBQQ#t=330

Grinders
A professional three or four wheel 2x72 is worth it
In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential on a good grinder.
Tracking problems are usually solved with belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than you first think.

Entry Level Grinders
Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder
Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qfYT_m2Tw0


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
There are some things that need to be modified
http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62944
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_e1p6D-UyycWHd2V0VMTFVJMDQ/edit

NWG No Weld Grinder $25 plans
http://usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://www.wilmontgrinders.com/Pages/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
Every maker has a preference, new belts come out all the time, search for recent info
Ceramic, trizact and structured belts are expensive and have long life. Aluminium oxide are cheap and wear quickly
Some belts have rigid backing, J-flex have soft backing and can blend curves.
Blaze and Cubitron are popular


VFD Variable Speed made simple

Step pulleys are not as cheap as you think
Maska steel pulleys, plus shaft, bearings, belt

It all adds up to 1/2 the price of a sealed NEMA 4 VFD like a KB Electronics KBAC-27D

I like direct drive with no belts, a VFD and 3 phase motor for about $200 over the price of the step pulleys with fine instant control.

NEMA 1 VFD’s metallic dust intrusion will smoke it.


Motor
3 phase 220v 1.5 HP motor, TEFC, frame 56 or 56C,
RPM is up to you some use 1700 RPM at double speed.
Make sure it has a foot base for the KMG and NWG, a C flange face mount for Bader, Bee, Wilton and GIB styles.
I get them on ebay, even with $100 shipping to Canada I save $ on used motors

The 1.5 HP combination is the most common
It allows you to plug into any 110vac, 15 amp outlet.
A 2 HP motor requires a 220vac input.


VFD
KBAC-27D
http://www.kbelectronics.com/Variable_Speed_AC_Drives_Inverters/AC_Drives_NEMA_4X.html
http://www.kbelectronics.com/manuals/kbda_manual.pdf
Use the Distributor Locator to find a local source, online sources may be cheaper.

There are cheaper, but the only VFD I found that runs a 1.5 HP motor on a 110v 15 amp input is the KBAC-27D

It is NEMA 4 sealed
Good community and company support, manuals, diagrams, photos and settings.

Travis W reports running 2 HP on a 110v circuit, but I haven’t tried it.

Hookup is simple
http://www.beaumontmetalworks.com/VS-setup.html


Safety Equipment
Protect -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and use safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.

If you can't breathe, nothing else matters.

Wearing a mask and glasses on the top of your head doesn't Count.

The minimum I use are silicone half masks with P100 Filter
The soft silicone masks fit better
3M 7500
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediaw...Ox_Uev7qe17zHvTSevTSeSSSSSS--&fn=CH7500FP.pdf

and North 7700
http://www.amazon.com/North-Safety-770030L-Silicone-Respirator/dp/B002C08YCW
http://www.amazon.com/North-7580P100-P100-Particulate-Cartridge/dp/B000UH6PSE/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_b.

Use VOC & P100 combo cartridge for acetone and glue fumes.
Prefilters can snap over the main filter for longer life.
There are 3 sizes of face get fitted in person

Shave, test the fit every time.

For beards
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II


Search

This searches BF well.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

Get rich making knives ?
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...knife-making-worth-it?p=11980504#post11980504

Visit a shop in person
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1166688-How-to-get-a-shop-invite

V36 December 2014
Countavatar.jpg
 
So I'm starting out and trying knife making out. I have a simple charcoal forge with a hairdryer for a blower. So far so good on that. My questions are... how to I regulate the temp and get it hotter ( possibly to welding temp?)
Second question is about handle making. What exactly is is stabilized wood and is it absolutely necessary? Or if I just use a mineral oil or a coat of lacked wI'll that be ok?
And one last question? I tried tongs as a first project... not going to plan. Should I keep trying or just admit I need more experience first.
Thanks,
thumper

Do you want to blacksmith, bladesmith, or make knives ?


First I say, try a simple knife by stock removal
Send it out for heat treatment.


You need those skills to finish forged work forge later and you can simplfy your process.




The trouble with the hairdryer forge is not to make it hotter, it's to control the heat lower so you don't run it wide open and burn steel.

Forget forge welding for now, do you want to make damascus, or do you want to make a knife.

Do a simple knife first, damascus is a huge project and you need more money, time, knowledge invested to do it.
by then you will make a propane gas forge.



Tongs are good things to have and to know how to make
good forging practice.

Watch Brian Bazel (spelling) youtube videos on tongs.



First
Let's see your drawings, we can comment before you waste any steel.
 
-first of all you should check out this website for blacksmithing questions, helped me a lot: http://www.anvilfire.com/ there are very specific hammering patterns that you need to learn for drawing out the steel. a book called 'the complete american blacksmith' was also a huge boon for me...and classes, but barring that, get some direct info, you can whack away all you want, i did too for awhile but once i picked up some techniques from real sources i improved a hundredfold overnight.

-stabilizing is the process of drawing epoxy or other sealants into wood or other materials in a vacuum. others can explain better and i believe there are tutorials on the forum. it is definitely not necessary, but it is essentially plasticizing the wood which makes it very durable. good hardwoods oiled correctly, and maintained diligently have and will last for a long time.

-the hair dryer is tough to regulate, but i have done some small forge welds with it, a couple folded spoons. they are sub ideal but it will work if you have good coal, thats something i didnt realize at first either, there are different grades of coal. i don't think my first forge using charcoal would have been hot enough.

hopefully some of the more experienced smiths will chime in. youtube is a great resource as well.


Thanks! It's nice to hear from someone who understands I'm doing it for the fun of it and I'm not wanting to take it super serious. I've already done some research on the basics and am looking fwd to trying them all. I realize I'm not gonna forge a katana ( or anything like that my first go around) I'll definitely look into those other threads
 
First off welcome to the site. My biggest piece of advice is spend HOURS going through the info the Count posted above. Its also located above in the stickies. There is so much information there to go through and it's usually one of the first places I go to answer most questions. The info there is worth millions!!!!!

Jay
 
I am new and I have both forge and stock removal stuff setup at my shop. Listen to J Doyle if you want to get an idea of what knifemaking is all about.

As you have found out, getting that hammer to do what you want and shape the metal the same way the pros do is not as easy as it looks. I have a pile of failed tong blanks to back that statement up. And I probably watched Brian Brazeal's tong video 100 times. It is certainly possible to just forge and make knives but it all depends on what kind of product you want to end up with.

A lot of guys make things shaped like knives and with a cutting edge but that doesn't make it a piece of art. I believe that is the heart of what J Doyle is talking about. There is a very steep learning curve to first learn to forge and then learn to make nice knives. Fact is you will still have to grind them to profile and put bevels on them, an edge, handles, etc. Forging will not help with any of that. Even in ancient times smits were not forging to finish knives. They still used large stone wheels and such to take care of the final details.

Knife making is not cheap even if you forge every knife. In fact you will find that forging a knife then finishing it can be much more expensive than stock removal. If you are interested in stock removal I won't go into detail here as there are many more detailed threads out there on what it takes to get started. But if you are not or can't get a belt sander, you can still try to forge knives but you can't finish them without additional tools.

Profile Steel to knife shape -> Profile bevels to rough shape -> Harden -> Temper -> Finish Sand -> Sand and Connect handle and pins -> Grind Edge

That's about as simplistic as I feel I can outline knifemaking. The first four you can do in a forge and the remaining with hand tools, but without guidance you will waste enough money to buy a belt sander and kiln on coal, time and steel.

Patience is your best friend in knifemaking. Take a step back, read what it takes both skill and equipment-wise and decide what road works best for you. Slowly start adding tools to your knife shop and by the time you're dead you won't care that you never had all the tools you wanted! Good luck, we were all in your shoes at some point!
 
Well I want to blacksmith. But make knives. My dad who is also my partner in crime is more interested in finishing the knives. I'm interested in forging. I was just asking about the welding temp to see if it was possible. Not really planning on doing it soon
 
I'll copy and paste a snippet of a reply I made to someone elsewhere very recently about almost the exact same type of thing.

I said to this other gentleman: "Those of us that have been around the forums for a while have seen lots of new guys come and go. Almost every other day the forums are flooded with new guys looking for advice or showing their first knives. After a month or two or six, I'm not sure what percentage of those guys are still around posting and improving, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a single digit number. It's very low, I can tell you that.

The ones that make it are the ones that read, research, use the forum searches (for free), make posts, ask questions, show knives, ask specific questions about specific things and they ask how they can improve. Then they listen to the responses they get from seasoned makers and pay attention and start to show improvements. Those are the guys that are still around months and years later making better and better knives all the time.

You know which guys don't make it? Their first post ever reads something like this: "Hey guys, I made my first knife ever from some thin steel I scrapped off a bicycle frame and used some of the padded seat for a handle." Then their second post ever reads something like this: "Second knife ever...Mosaic pattern damascus liner lock folder with Unicorn ivory scales and 24k gold engraving on the bolsters and fileworked enriched uranium liners and backspacer." (Of course there is some *VERY SLIGHT* exaggeration, you get the point.)

Some of them are only dreamers and some actually attempt that second knife resulting in one of the worst train wrecks you could ever see in the handmade knife arena. We see it all the time, no joke. Either way, those guys don't last long."

Don't be like that second group of people. That's all I'm saying.
 
Problem solved, just make your dad buy the finishing stuff and you will be set :D

I have forge welded one time so far and I have the same setup as you. Maybe buy a bigger blow dryer.
 
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