Hey Knifenut... Silicates

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Jul 26, 2008
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The other day you asked a good question about silicate size, but nobody had any answers. So I've been doing some reading... Here's some of what I've been finding.

Silicates can be measured down to single digit nanometers, (0.000,000,000,1 of a meter) so WAAAAAY finer than any of our compounds. (The Ebola virus is 200 nanometers) Generally, silicates are roughly the thickness of human cell membranes. By the same token, they can be measured UP to a micron in certain chemical configurations, but as congomerates rather than free silicates which is what the 'Russian' process creates in leather. I can't find anything that tells me the specific size found in leather but I'm guessing it varies heavily depending upon what the animal was feeding on. Still in the low, perhaps double digit nanometers.

This next paragraph gave me a much clearer idea of just how small silicates can be;
"Think about fossil dinosaur bones. We have never actually found a bone. What are found are stones that are exactly what the bones looked like. (Think 'petrified wood,' once wood, now stone. Same thing happened to dinosaur bones.) When the original bone was buried, water containing silicates seeped into it, and ever so slowly the silicates were deposited within the bone. Over time, the bony structure dissolved and was completely replaced by the stone, in such minute detail that from the appearance of the stone we can today deduce with total accuracy even the cell structure of the original bone, and can indeed diagnose what diseased the bone may have suffered."

So it seems to me (and this is just hypothosis) that when using good quality leather (which would come from well cared for animals and tanned properly) we ought to have an extremely fine grained polishing agent, which would work well for a final step in the stropping sequence. I wouldn't want to use it to profile D2. :)

Stitchawl
 
Good info, I knew it was fine but daaaaaaaammmmm.

Seems kinda useless for anything But a straight razor? To get any real effect you would probably need to finish a edge to a minimal of .25 before the natural leather, what ya think?
 
Stitch,

Here's more interesting trivia for you about silicates. The polishing agent in natural (Japanese) water stones is silica. Ohira Tomae stones are something like 42% silica by volume.

I also read that some Extreme Sharpening people do EXACTLY what you talk about. They use high quality leather, no compound, for final stropping. I've been meaning to try it with some of the sole leather that I have, as well as a strip of horse belly that I have lurking in my shop.

Give it a try and see what happens!

-Jim
 
Silica is also what novaculite/arkansas stones are made of, as well as tripoli powder. It generally isn't that small though, a few microns at least. Sand, quartz, chert, diatomaceous earth, etc. are silica... it's the most abundant mineral in the earth's crust according to wikipedia. Our natural sharpening stones are made up of the remains of diatoms/radiolarians.
 
Good info, I knew it was fine but daaaaaaaammmmm.

Seems kinda useless for anything But a straight razor? To get any real effect you would probably need to finish a edge to a minimal of .25 before the natural leather, what ya think?

I stopped using my .25 mic in favor of .5mic some time ago, but then go to a bare strop. I definitely DO see an improvement (using my sharpening tests) when I use the bare strops, especially with very high quality professionally made barber's razor strops. :thumbup:

These are strops that cost $50-$75 many years ago. Today they would go in the $100's. They are all "Russian" leather strops. They don't look any different from a good piece of care-for leather, but they sure do put an edge on a blade. But I also think that they will put a better edge on a straight razor than on a large K-Bar just because of final edge thickness.

Now I wonder about the 'Russian' process... I know that this involves many hours of boning which 'brings out the silicates' in the leather, and this used to be done by hand using (originally) a rounded end of a cow's leg bone. Besides bringing silicates to the surface of the leather, I wonder if this somehow might also cause some of them to clump together into slightly larger conglomerates (I did see in my research that silicates can clump together) to form grit sizes of perhaps .10mic or so. That would make more sense to me that trying to utilize 10 nanometers!

When I make my own strops with veggie tanned leather, I case the leather first, then roll it for 'as long as I don't get bored' using a heavy marble rolling pin. The leather is soft and mold-able as is when making a fitted leather sheath, so I know that I'm certainly compressing the leather. I wonder how much this is doing bring up the silicates. I wish I had access to an electron microscope. Maybe I should be rolling on the leather from the rough side, forcing silicates down through to collect on the smooth side?!? :confused:

Stitchawl
 
I have a old uni-flex "Russian" That was really beat up and dry. I sanded the surface and oiled it to bring a little life back but the surface is still in bad shape. Before I did anything to it I tried it bare and it made impressive improvements but it now has .5 HA spray on it.
 
I have a old uni-flex "Russian" That was really beat up and dry. I sanded the surface and oiled it to bring a little life back but the surface is still in bad shape. Before I did anything to it I tried it bare and it made impressive improvements but it now has .5 HA spray on it.

LOL! I think you'd try spraying .5 diamond on a slice of French Toast and use that! :p

When I was an teen and just started shaving regularly, my grandfather gave me an old straight razor, mug and brush, and an old strop he brought over from 'the Old Country.' He also gave me a small tube (like a toothpaste tube but only about an inch long and 1/4 inch in diameter) of what he called 'strop dressing.' This tube was only half full, but he told me that it should last me the rest of my life. He showed me that to use it, he would just touch his finger to the mouth of the tube to get some on his finger, then rub that over the entire strop. The leather would almost glow! It was some kind of oil or grease, but it didn't feel oily or greasy afterwords. There was nothing written on the tube. Just bare tin (I think) with a crimped bottom and a metal screw cap.

That was about 50 years ago or so. I stopped shaving everything except my neck the day I was discharged from the Military a few years later and grew a beard. I still have the razor but I don't use it any more. I gave that strop to my son when he turned twenty and announced that he was going to try using a straight razor, but I never could find that little tube of strop dressing... I wonder what it was. Certainly kept that old strop looking new. My son still has the strop, but he no longer shaves with a straight razor either.

Stitchawl
 
Would their be any way to properly refinish my strop?
 
Strop with a plain leather belt on a belt grinder and you can the the results in real time. It is very slow but you can see it cut, polish, and remove very fine scratches left behind by polishing compounds from a previous belt. Of coarse this is many times faster then by hand and is just getting fast enough to see it in real time. If I were doing that by hand, having never seen the belt grinder results, I would probably have given up before I saw any result with the naked eye, and considered it vudu.

Gary

PS now back to Knifenut1013's question on how to refinish his strop?
 
Leather is skin. Skin is made up of several different layers. Five actually, but primarily two that we're concerned with; the epidermis and dermis. The epidermis is made up of three layers itself and is the one we use when we strop on the smooth side of the leather.

The cell structure of each of these layers is different. The cells on the outside layer are much smaller and contain higher levels of collagen (the 'glue' that holds us together,) than underlying layers. Those outer layers are stronger, tougher, more water resistant, etc., than the layers below. The size of the cells increase and the strength of the cells decrease as you get lower and lower into the skin. Imagine taking the top 1/16 inch layer off of a piece of tooling cowhide and trying to pull it apart. Now imagine taking that same 1/16 inch piece off of the rough side and trying to pull it apart. The strongest layer with the smallest cell structure is what we strop on with a smooth strop.

Once you sand off that top layer, you are exposing softer cells. Nothing you do will ever make that piece of leather as tough as it once was. But.... does that matter?

If you sand down a piece of leather with some 400-600 grit sandpaper, taking off only a micro thin layer of the epidermis and leaving it quite smooth, that leather is still going to be an effective strop, especially if you are using it with some sort of compound. It won't be as firm a stop as if you hadn't sanded it down, but it will still be firmer than if you were using the rough side of the leather. Just guessing again, but I'd think that this strop would be just as good for a pocket folder or fixed blade knife, but not 'quite' as good as a strop for a straight razor.

If "I" were in the situation where I wanted to sand down a piece of leather and rejuvenate it, after sanding "I'd" probably first wet down the leather well (as when casing leather for molding or tooling,) then roll it out for 30 minutes with a heave rolling pin. Aftwards "I'd" use something like Lexol leather conditioner rubbed into the strop, or genuine Mink Oil. I wouldn't use a wax such as SnoSeal.

After the conditioning, "I'd" only use that strop with some sort of compound. To my way of thinking it wouldn't be of 'top quality' value used as a bare strop. It should be just about as good as any store bought piece of leather used with compound strop. But remember, this is my opinion only... :)

Stitchawl
 
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I've been wondering about this since reading Verhoeven's sharpening paper. He found that stropping on plain leather didnt change the edge sharpness or the scratch pattern on the sides of the edge. He was only using a few dozen strokes by hand, and may have done similar work on a plain leather wheel on the Tormek. On the other hand, I have noticed an improvement in sharpness on blades I've stropped on my belt when no other option was available, using similar numbers of strokes and light pressure as he used in the experiments. So the question is, if we know from his experiments that clean leather used by hand with 40 or so strokes doesnt really do any abrading, what was happening on the Cara Cara I was sharpening? I speculate it was some cleaning of crud stuck to the edge, or perhaps slightly and gently realigning the edge similar to a steel, which is neither slight nor gentle.
 
I've been wondering about this since reading Verhoeven's sharpening paper. He found that stropping on plain leather didnt change the edge sharpness or the scratch pattern on the sides of the edge.[SNIP]
On the other hand, I have noticed an improvement in sharpness on blades I've stropped on my belt when no other option was available, using similar numbers of strokes and light pressure as he used in the experiments. [SNIP] So the question is, if we know from his experiments that clean leather used by hand with 40 or so strokes doesnt really do any abrading, what was happening on the Cara Cara I was sharpening?

What you actually discovered is something that has been stalking the halls of Academia since the beginning of time. And that is;
There are ALWAYS two correct answers, usually opposing answers, to every tested theory.
In other words, although Verhoeven found that stropping on leather didn't work, other people find that it does work. Was Verhoeven wrong? No. Is everyone else wrong? No.

Stropping on a bare strop didn't work for Verhoeven. Most likely he didn't expect it would. Most scientists begin experiments with preconceived ideas of the results, and their tests prove them right 98% of the time.

Just because a 'scientist' says something, doesn't mean it's true. A quick look through a history of various scientific disciplines shows that quite clearly. When did 'man' appear on earth? How many years ago? Well, that depends upon which scientist you happen to believe. How long ago did the earth form? Again, scientists have stated, and publish in respected scientific journals anywhere from 1.5 billion years ago to 4.5 billion years ago. Now THAT is a very large discrepancy, but these guys were all very respected scientists. It's the same in EVERY field of science. For every scientist who says 'white,' you can find another scientist who will say 'black.' Just because it's printed in some book doesn't mean that it's correct. Some modern school systems still teach the 'Adam and Eve' creation theory. Some scientists don't agree with that. They insist on Evolution. Who's correct? (Ask yourself why you are so sure... :) )

Same problem occurs with sharpening a knife. Some swear that one method is better (and they HAVE tried them all) than all the other. But someone else says, no... it's MY choice that's the best of them all. Who's right? Both of them. They are both correct. They found what is best for their use. Verhoeven may never strop with a bare strop. I will. Probably, as you found that it improves your edges, you will. It wasn't the compound you left on the blade (as you'll discover in the future.) It was stropping correctly on a bare strop. But don't believe me either. Don't blindly believe, just because it's written somewhere, that it's a fact. Test for yourself.

Trust... but verify. :thumbup:


Stitchawl
 
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I went back and reread the section on hand stropping with clean leather. He used a Butz strop, which is apparently made just for stropping. He states that he in fact did believe it would show improvement due to natural abrasives. I'm not blindly accepting his results, or I wouldnt be here asking questions. However, he provides 3000x pictures and seeing the results is difficult to argue. The scratch pattern remains virtually the same and the edge width (his measure of sharpness) remains at 0.5 microns, as far as I can tell from the pictures. The clean leather stropping was done after sharpening on a 6000 grit waterstone. So if clean leather doesnt noticably polish or reduce edge width at 3000x, what is it doing? My experiences say its doing something, just not the 2 criteria he was measuring. Maybe a look at 10000x would reveal something not seen at 3000x. Who knows? He compares the edges to a known value for Gillette and straight razors, which were measured at around 0.4-0.2 microns in edge width. The question remains, what is it doing?
 
Verhoeven did the research and wrote the sharpening paper, helped rediscover the process for wootz, and wrote a metallurgy guide for knifemakers. I don't see why he would sacrifice his intellectual merit and falsify results to perpetuate a bias.

I have seen edge pics that show an effect on razor edges from stropping on leather that is not loaded with compound. The edge angle, steel used, pressure, or some other factor may have meant that Verhoeven's results would not match, but those are variables. I don't think they are cover-ups.
 
Verhoeven did the research and wrote the sharpening paper, helped rediscover the process for wootz, and wrote a metallurgy guide for knifemakers. I don't see why he would sacrifice his intellectual merit and falsify results to perpetuate a bias.

I don't think anyone is saying that he falsified anything.
I think he published the results he found.

Other people have experimented and found different results. I don't think they falsified anything either. I think they published the results they found.

Science is filled with people who's results differ from others.

I think it all depends upon how you look and what you look for. :)


Stitchawl
 
I started thinking after my last post in this thread and stopped thinking of it as leather and started thinking of it as skin, needless to say I almost predicted to myself your following post. I think I'll use my orbital to finish removing the damage then just use it as a dedicated compound strop. New ones are not that bad in price and down the road I might pick one up to use bare.

Thanks for taking the time to find out this very usefull info.
 
It makes me wonder... :confused:

We'll go out and spend hundreds of dollars on sharpening stones, sharpening systems, sharpening equipment. We pour over catalogs to decided which is the very best stone to use, which is the very best system to use. Many of us have spent the big bucks required to get the EdgePro or something bench mounted with wheels or belts... :thumbup: Some have taken the time and expense to machine and craft their own sharpening systems...

... and then we search for the cheapest piece of leather and the lowest priced compound! :thumbdn:

Jeez! A high quality leather barber's strop costs between $50-$75 and lasts a lifetime. That's .008 cents a day for the next 20 years. Not 8 cents. Point zero zero eight cents. For you guys who have more than 20 years coming it's even cheaper. If you're 25 today, you can figure another 45-50 years easy. That's .0001 cent per day! :D

Stitchawl
 
I got my compound from harbor freight and a belt from the thrift store is my favorite comment.
 
I got my compound from harbor freight and a belt from the thrift store is my favorite comment.

It reminds me of the overweight lady ordering Chocolate cheese cake with whipped cream, and coffee, but with a not-fat creamer because she's on a diet... :rolleyes:

I can understand trying to save money, and using a belt from the 'SallyAnn Boutique' (Salvation Army) will do better than nothing. I've been broke plenty of times. But when someone is on a 'quest' for the perfect edge... a 'mission' to rescue a blade from the ignominy of being called 'dull,' we just can't send our knights out without giving them good war horses and good lances. (How's that for a metaphor? LOL!) They need good tools of the trade. If we can spend $150 on a set of stones, or $300 for an EdgePro, or even $60 for a Sharpmaker, we should consider another $60 for a real strop as a justifiable purchase! ... if we can justify it to our wives... :o

Stitchawl
 
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I've made three leather strops. One was out of a high quality belt I bought from a leather store, which I attach to a door handle — it works great! Adding compound (jewelers rouge from a local specialist store) speeded things up a bit.

Then I had two stones cut out for me. I bought two large pieces of leather, but this time slightly softer than the belt I already had. So, I made two bench strops by gluing the leather onto the stones and gluing silicone glue on the opposite side for friction, so that the stones would stay put on the table. What I've done is to put the Tormek compound and also jewelers rouge on one and I've left the one stone all natural.

I can't really notice much difference between these three, but I still go to the clean leather for last and hope that it will make a difference. All my blades are hair-poppin' sharp, but the ones where I get really into it can push-cut newspaper. I don't need them to be push-cut sharp, because if I just use the blade for some 5-10 minute whittling then it's back to hair-poppin' sharp at best.

What I'm saying is that yeah — better leather or whatnot will make a difference, but is it worth it? All you need is a sharp blade and I can achieve that by sharpening on a newspaper!
 
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