Hey Knifenut... Silicates

stoffi said:
What I'm saying is that yeah — better leather or whatnot will make a difference, but is it worth it?
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Now THAT is the $64,000 Question! (For you younger guys, "$64,000 Question" was one of the first big money quiz shows on TV.)

Is it worth it? To whom? For what? When? Wow! That's one question I don't think we can even research to find the answer! I guess it all goes back to; "Personal Choice." What it is that the individual sets as their own personal goals for sharpening. Is it worth it to the sharpener...

Stitchawl
 
Inspiration it was!

I remembered that I had a piece of horse butt leather (said to be the best) and decided to try it out. I started with my scrapper 5 and within a few passes noticed a slight change in the sharpness but it was not clear enough so I went in search of a better example. I found my CPM-M4 mule team would only whittle hair near the back of the blade and the front half near the tip had a ever so slight burr and would not even come close to whittling. I noticed in the first few passes the polish on the bevel started to increase so I checked to see if the sharpness improved, to my surprise it had but in a very fine/smooth way. I went a little more and then went and tested it on some hair, from the tip of the blade I pulled effortless curls of hair 4 times in total before severing the hair. Its been so long since I tried bare leather and now I'm sooooooo glad I did. I have a feeling the type of leather made the biggest difference but whatever it was it has changed my line of thinking a bit........ and to make it even better it worked on M4!!!!
 
stitchawl said:
Now THAT is the $64,000 Question! (For you younger guys, "$64,000 Question" was one of the first big money quiz shows on TV.)

Is it worth it? To whom? For what? When? Wow! That's one question I don't think we can even research to find the answer! I guess it all goes back to; "Personal Choice." What it is that the individual sets as their own personal goals for sharpening. Is it worth it to the sharpener...

Stitchawl
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Amen brother. I completely agree.
 
knifenut1013 said:
Inspiration it was!

I remembered that I had a piece of horse butt leather (said to be the best) and decided to try it out. [snip] I have a feeling the type of leather made the biggest difference
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No question about horsehide producing the very best strops. That is what was used extensively back in the 1800's-early 1900's for production of 'Russian Leather' for razor strops. Boned horsehide. :thumbup:

Just going a few steps further along in my thinking...
1) I found through my research that grasses were very high in silicates, especially green grass.
2) Both cows and horses feed on grasses, hay, oats, etc.
3) Horses eat much more green grass while cows get much more supplemental feeds to fatten them up for meat production
sooo.....
4) Maybe.... horse hide makes for a better strop because the food intake by horses, containing much higher concentrations of silicates, produces a higher residue of silicates in their skin...

I can find about 200 tanners that sell horsehide so finding the stuff should be no problem. I doubt, however, that they would sell less than a side or double shoulder, if even that small. I'd love to experiment with the stuff, learn about the proper way to 'bone' leather, etc., but I have a feeling that between buying and shipping, the costs will be waaaay to high for a 'fun' project. It's like trying to teach myself how to make quality buggy whips now that the horse and buggy are confined to Ohio and Pennsyvania Amish communities! I'm sure that if I went to that area I could find someone to teach me how to make a high quality buggy whip by hand. But those folks wear beards. Where can I go to find someone to teach me the proper way to bone leather? :confused:

I'll keep looking but it appears right now that the best way to get a really high quality 'Russian Leather' horsehide razor strop is to spend $100 and buy one.

Stitchawl
 
Knifenut, your experience is similar to mine when stropping on the back of my belt. I was on vacation and found my Cara Cara somewhat dull, to our standards. So I flattened my belt on the table and stropped on the rough side. It went from hair shaving to whittling in a few passes, maybe 20 - 30. I havent really tried it since then, but I may start back.
 
stitchawl said:
I can find about 200 tanners that sell horsehide so finding the stuff should be no problem. I doubt, however, that they would sell less than a side or double shoulder, if even that small.
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Further research showed up some interesting stuff. It seems that horsehide isn't sold in the same 'cuts' that cowhide sells in. 'Shoulders,' 'Bends,' 'Double Shoulders,' etc., that we find in all the cowhide retailers don't seem to be used by horsehide dealers. (Perhaps there are other dealers that do use those terms but I haven't seen them.) "Single horse front," "Double Horse front," "Strips." But they do sell 'Shells,' which are the double ovals the cover the croup and upper rear thigh of the horse, each oval about 25-30 inches long by about 12-15 inches wide. I've inquired if they will sell in small quantities.

Stitchawl
 
Stichawl if you type horse butt into the search box on that auction site there are 2 nice pieces of leather for sale for under $20.
 
grybsh7 said:
Ebay. It shows the seller ships worldwide.
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Oh... thanks, but I looked at E-bay first, before I even looked for tanners. The horsehide being sold there is 2oz chrome tanned garment leather. We need 7-9oz (or thicker!) veg-tanned stuff for strops. Keep an eye out though. Maybe we can still find what we're looking for!! :thumbup:

Stitchawl
 
grybsh7 said:
Stitchawl The 2 pieces I'm telling you about are 7-8oz veg tanned.
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Hmmm..... Thanks! I must have missed these the first time I looked there. Are these the ones you were seeing?
"Horse Butt Veg tan Leather Guy 7-8 oz Yokes on Chaps"
I'm just guessing now, but I think that these are NOT butt pieces. They are too long. I think they are 'strips' that come from an area forward from the 'shell. You can see the difference here;
http://horween.com/index.php/leathers/ Then click on 'equine hide shapes'

The shells would have a slightly thicker leather, with a denser cell structure. That's what I really want for a top quality strop. While probably ANY horsehide will be better than cowhide, for this experiment I want to use the highest quality horsehide I can find. Thanks again for trying to help. I appreciate it!

Stitchawl
 
Stitchawl now I get it.:thumbup: I'm just a little slooow.:D
Thats why I love this place, I'm always learning. Now I've got to have a cordovan shell leather strop.
 
smegs said:
Somewhat pricey but it's from the south end.
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/indextool.mvc?prodid=MS-HORSEST
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That is the stuff I'm looking for, smegs! But I want the entire shell section, not just already cut strips of it. :)

Back in the days of the straight razor, the very best razor strops were made from horsehide from the south end of a northbound horse... but it was 'worked' a special way called 'boning' to bring out more of the natural silicates in the leather. Horsehide has more natural silicates than cowhide, but boning the leather brings up even more.

Today, as leathercrafters, when we talk of 'boning' we are referring to the practice of rubbing the leather to mold or crease it into a specific shape, perhaps to conform to the contours of a knife or handgun, using a tool called a 'bone folder.' Old boot and shoemakers use to use the rounded end of a spoon to rub out rough spots in their cased leather, and they called that boning too.

Stropmakers had a process they called boning, and when applied to horsehide shells, the butt section of the hide, produced "Russian" leather. From all accounts, this boning process takes several hours of hard manual labor, and for some reason couldn't be reproduced by machine. This was the finest quality strop material available, and this is what I want to try to reproduce. ;) I guess the restrictions on horsehide production in the US, and the high cost of the manual labor, combined with the decrease in people purchasing razor strops causes our difficulties in finding good Russian Leather razor strops today.

At the same time I realize that there is probably something available in the local Dollar Store that will work just as well... :o

Stitchawl
 
I wonder what process my horse leather has been through? It looks tanned and heavly Compssed but not sure, it works really fast though you would think it has diamond compound on it.
 
knifenut1013 said:
I wonder what process my horse leather has been through? It looks tanned and heavly Compssed but not sure, it works really fast though you would think it has diamond compound on it.
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You probably left it on the table one day when you were using your diamond spray as a room freshener and it got covered. :D

I'm having difficulties finding accurate information about the boning process for strops. All I have so far is that the rounded end of a cow's leg bone was used while the leather was moved over a rounded end of a log. I still can't find out if it was used on the hair side or the muscle side of the skin. I do know that the leather was well cased for the process to work correctly.

Stitchawl
 
You have sented diamond spray? ;)

When applied to leather it does have a animal blood smell though, can't smell it with plain leather but once the spray goes on the smell comes out.

My piece is a little bumpy and I plan on rolling it out when I mount it, shouldn't hurt it right?
 
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