Hey, let's get drunk and spelunk in the wee hours of the morning!

Kampfjaeger said:
I used to be part of the Woodville Karst Plain Project - Purely surface support and shallow water support though.

Kamp, if you don't mind will you please explain the rolls of surface and shallow water support?
Just what is considered shallow?
What's the deepest you have ever been in a cave?
In a really clear cave how far does the light extend?
In a really clear water cave does the sunlight ever reach the bottom?
If not how far does sunlight extend into the depths?
In a really clear water cave does it ever seem like you're on the surface because of the clarity?

When I lived in Florida when I was a wee lad we never visited any of the famous springs that drew the tourists but I was always in awe of how clear the water could be in places.
I know what the tannic water looks like too.
 
Kampfjaeger said:
Just a little anecdote about a cave diving accident that claimed the life of someone I knew: He went into the cave, and over extended his dive in distance/depth:available breathing gas. He was a hundred feet away from the drop tank (aka staging bottle) that would have saved his life when he lost consciouness. He could see the bottle, but just couldn't reach it in time. His last act before blacking out was to clip himself to his safety line so that his body could be found.

And then he died.

He was a good man and very experienced. It was quite a loss. I've seen a number of bodies pulled out of caves. One happened while I was training for my intro to caving certification. Needless to say, I took the lessons to heart.

Kamp, that must be very sad for you.:( I'm sorry you have lost friends to the sport.
It's good that there are people like you because I couldn't/wouldn't do such a dangerous thing for fun and sport.
I had rather jump out of a perfectly good airplane.
If it weren't for people like you and others we would still be living where we originated.
 
My wife and I really enjoy the caves of "Frankonian Swizzerland" (=Fränkische Schweiz) nearby - but these are Caves in the mountains of a jurassic Landscape - only small lakes and sometimes creeks inside - but lots of wonderful stalagmites/stalaktites. These caves are not as big as the ones you are talking about - the largest I know of has about 600 meters, sometimes it is really close and you have to crawl and push yourself through the passages.
Generally I get a shiver from the idea of diving inside.

Sad that these young people had to die. :(
There is a really wonderful world underneath - maybe you want to see some photos:
my wife and me before caving

inside the Wunders-Cave

my sister in law working her way through the cave

Beautiful stalgmite in the Schönstein-Cave

Watermarks in the Schönstein-Cave

thats my favourite cave (plan)

Interesting - among us khukuri-lovers we discovered several archers and now caving seems to be of interest for many of us.

Andreas

Andreas
 
Thank you for you kind words Yvsa. Cave diving and dry spelunking both have inherent risks. You simply MUST be well trained, be on your A Game for each dive, and never take your safety for granted. And NEVER NEVER NEVER break the rule of thirds. That rule is breathing a third of your gas to go in, a third of your gas to come out, and retain a third of your gas for emergencies. To practice less conservative diving in this environment is asking for trouble. ANd always remember that there is NOTHING so cool, valuable, or expensive as your own butt. Make sure that you remember that and bring it back out each and every time. You can always come back to recover abandoned gear.

Those are some pretty good questions you asked. I can't really give definitive answers to all, but here's what I can say:

Surface support is the team of folks who are in charge of aiding the divers from dry land. In this role, we carry rebreathers, scooters (DPVs), staging bottles, food, etc. to the water where the shallow water support divers take it from there. We also coordinate rescue/emergency operations and plans in the event of a mishap. Fortunately none have happened on my watch.

Shallow water support is the team of divers who transfer gear and run diving errands to a maximum depth of 100 feet.

The deepest I've ever been in a cave has to be (and I don't have my log book in front of me) around 150 feet. Actually it is probably a little less, but that is the ballpark.

As for light reaching the bottom of a cave given the proper water conditions... Wel, technically, as long as you are in a portion of the cave where you can see daylight, you are in the "cavern zone." So technically, no. There is NO sunlight in a cave. All you have is the lighting you bring with you.

As to how far sunlight penetrates in clear water... That was something I had to learn for my class, but never really had any practical application so I promptly forgot the actual figures. What I DO know though, is that different wavelengths of light penetrate farther than others. For example, below 30 feet, red appears green. I remember this because I cut my finger on a rock while diving (I didn't realize it at the time) and needed to write something on my dive slate (underwater note pad). As I grasped the slate, I noticed what appeared to be green algae trapped under my thumb. I shook my hand and regrasped the slate - and lo and behold, the algae was still there. I took a closer look, and came to realize that it was actually blood leaking out from a small slice in my thumb. Actually, it was pretty neat.

And as for the clarity of the water, I've been on dives where the water was so clear, that I literally had the sensation that I was flying. One experience was so beautiful that it brought tears to my eyes. It is a truly remarkable thing to do. I will say, though, that I am not one of those folks who likes diving through tight restrictions (tight spots) and really narrow caves. I like the giant chambers. They are awe inspiring.
 
I have been diving for 30 years and have never been in a cave like this and never will. I have friends who have been there and back. They had nothing to tell me that made me want to try it. The silt gets stirred up and visibility is zero. The only cahnce they had to make it back was by tying a string at the entrance and following it back.

The big question in my mind is "Why?" Why go in a dangerous place where visibility is zero? And the water is cold. Cold, dark and dangerous. WHY go there?

I did go one really fabulous place that had huge volcanic bubbles. The lava had rolled down inot the sea and formed these underwater bubbles that had solidified. But the water was clear and the tops of the bubbles of stone had cracked long ago allowing the sunlight to filter through.

It is called the "Cathedrals at Lanai."
http://www.mauiscubadiving.cc/Cathedrals_At_Lanai.html

THIS is worth doing and is safe.
 
I have dived in cavern areas. I had the usual sport dive gear and a single tank. I went as deep into them as I was comfortable...I stuck my head in and shined my flashlight to see what I could. I remember thinking to myself "Yeah, it's a big friggin hole, forget this".

Just one of the reasons I am here to tell you about it...even *I* had enough sense to not go in.

.
 
Usually, the cave "silts out" only if you or your buddy are using improper finning or scootering techniques. When my friend started to try to convince me to try cave diving, I thought to myself, "What for? There aren't a whole lot of animals, you're in a dark water-filled hole in the ground... What is there to like?"

Then I tried it. It really feel like I'm... exploring some kind of hidden world - a subterranean fairly land at times. I know that sounds goofy, but there are just formations and structures one only sees in underwater caves and there is an otherworldly feel to it at times. And then there are times in which it is just a tough swim against a strong current. The good has outweighed the bad for me so far. However, my days of cave exploration are numbered. I only dive places that are commonly dove such as Ginnie Springs. Ginnie Springs has a permanent line (read that as a thick rope) laid down in the main part of its cave system and I seldom venture further than the end or that line. I have two little kids and a wonderful wife. I can derive adequate pleasure from this kind of diving and feel no need to subject myself to unnecessary risks.
 
I did a 70ft dive once near Cozumel, Mexico. The Mexican guide took us through a long passage. I could see light at the other end of the tunnel and thought "this isn't going to be so bad". Once I got in the tunnel, however, things were different. The confined space had my mind screaming "I gotta get the hell out of here." So, no, I won't be doing any real cave diving any time soon.

It takes a special breed of person to cave dive, and I ain't one of them! :)
 
Semper Fi said:
It takes a special breed of person to cave dive, and I ain't one of them! :)

Yeah...commonly referred to as a nutjob.

;)

I greatly respect the dedication and training that goes into becoming cave certified...it does *not* make me aspire to do so myself.
 
Semper Fi said:
I did a 70ft dive once near Cozumel, Mexico. The Mexican guide took us through a long passage. I could see light at the other end of the tunnel and thought "this isn't going to be so bad". Once I got in the tunnel, however, things were different. The confined space had my mind screaming "I gotta get the hell out of here." So, no, I won't be doing any real cave diving any time soon.

It takes a special breed of person to cave dive, and I ain't one of them! :)

i'm with you, way back when i was a young coast guard lt., i had to inspect the gas turbine exhaust pipe that went horizontally from the engine room out the back end of our ship (i was the engr. officer in charge), was just a bit bigger than i needed to crawl to the end, finished the inspection, no sweat, started to turn around & got stuck. was horrible, finally forced my body thru the turn by sheer panic & made it back out the access hatch swearing worse than my chiefs, i delegated the port side one to someone else & refused to go into anything that small ever again. i shudder just thinking about caves...
 
My heart goes out to the family's of those kids.

I think a healthy respect for nature is mandatory including the fact that perhaps there are some area's of God's house that we wern't meant to go.

They may not have been drunk, but testosterone and impressing women can be just as foolish.
 
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