Hey, you butt in line?

Kevin Jones

Kevin Jones

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Oct 28, 2006
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I was trying to introduce a little humor in my titling this thread ;) :), however hope we can have a serious and productive discussion.

I find the whole custom knife ordering process interesting, particularly how different makers go about or what criteria they use for filling their orders.
The subject of (or implications of) makers stepping "out of order" in filling their knife orders/delivery schedules has come up in several recent threads.
Karl Andersen started a thread telling of him immediately making a knife at a good customer's request. In another thread Lorien, wrote of having to wait two years for a Nick Wheeler knife while we have heard on this forum there's other collectors of Nick knives who have been waiting much longer than that. And yet another thread where a collector is displeased that a maker is making knives to sell to the public on the open market, yet can't fill orders as promised.

Karl gave a very open, honest and legitimate reason and I'm sure Nick had good reason as well.
In fact, I'm sure there's many good and/or logical reasons why a maker may fill his order list "out of sequence".

Some makers will give their best customers, or those who purchase the most knives from them, immediate service (or close to such). Though it's debatable as to how fair this policy is, knifemaking is a business and it's a longtime standard practice that businesses give their best customers preferential treatment. Examples of this are the airline frequent flyer programs, the hotels frequent stay clubs, popular restaurants giving the best reservations and tables to their best customers and most suppliers/vendors utilize a tied pricing structure where their customers who purchase the most receive the largest discounts and best delivery times.

I will share a personal experience that's relevant and has increased my interest in the subject. I ordered a particular model knife from a well known maker about 3-1/2 years ago and a good friend ordered the same model from this maker about 4-1/2 ago and neither of us have received them.
I recently found the maker has made, again the same model knife, for another collector who put the order in 2 years ago. I'm not angry about this and certainly still consider this maker my friend, however I can't help but be curious as to why the maker went out of sequence on these knives. And I will ask the next time I see him. I won't identify the maker or collector as neither has done anything wrong IMO and I want to keep this thread positive.

Now my creating this thread is in no way "sour grapes" or am I complaining as I've probably been on the "short wait" side as many or more times than the "long wait" side in regard to receiving knife orders.
I hope my sharing the experience above and starting this thread may help collectors better understanding how makers go about deciding which orders to fill and "when" and it may help ease some hard feelings regarding such.

I ask makers to share the criteria or method they use for determining sequence of filling orders/delivery schedules.

What situations or conditions are given priority?

Or are there any?

And collectors, how do you feel about this subject in general?

Should the maker stick strictly to his/her list/delivery schedule?

Are there perfectively good reasons for filling orders/delivery schedules out of sequence?

Should collectors who support an individual maker the most get preferential treatment?

I thank you in advance for your interest and participation and PLEASE lets try to keep this thread productive.
 
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I think there are times when making an knife out of order is acceptable. One such case happens to be occuring for me right now. I asked a knife maker to make a knife for me that I could carry at my wedding and use on the cake. He told me what his wait times were farther back than my wedding. However I have purchased knives from him before and because this is a very special occasion he took the order.

Now I agree it certainly is not fair to those people who are ahead of me in line to have to wait a bit longer because of my unique situation. I do find it to be a special circumstance in which such an request could/should be granted if the maker feels they are up too it.

The subject in General usually does not bother me. I have had it go both ways for me. I had one maker tell me my order would be pushed back a month because of an returned piece by a customer who needed warranty service. I got the knife almost a month later as promised and in the end it made little difference to me. However that was a month and Not Years. I feel if I had to wait years difference for a knife that I ordered before someone else I might feel a bit put off. Thats not necessarily the same as someone ordering a knife after me, but I feel if the maker explains the situation and lets the customers know whats going on it shouldnt be too big of an issue.
 
Kevin, I'm sorry but I just have to say that I think this thread is going to go pair shaped pretty quick:eek:.

But I will say that business owners can conduct their business in whatever form they see fit, and they should. The market will sort them out, this is capitalism. Customer feedback is important, but sometimes it is worse than worthless. People can be petty and ignorant, and business owners are sometimes subject to the worst of it.

Customers can also be wonderful. These wonderful customers can become friends who can ensure that one's business thrives, and how they are dealt with is entirely up to the guy running his business.

A maker's list is HIS list, the potential customer's place on that list does not 'belong' to the customer, unless of course payment has been accepted on spec, (bad idea according to most). It is up to the maker how he works his way through it, and if someone is so concerned that someone else 'butted in line', I would suggest they find someone else to coddle them.
:)
 
Lorien, in my being a business owner most of my working life I agree that business owners can and do conduct their businesses just as they like and I also agree that the market will sort itself, however the time associated with this "sorting" can reap havoc on the industry.
We need ALL the new collectors we can get as we also need to retain those we have. A new collector being promised a knife in 2 years and to still be waiting for it in 4 is not a productive way to retain new collectors in the community or veteran collectors for that matter. Especially if they find other collectors have been put in front of him.

So much can be achieved by honest communication in quoting legitimate delivery times stating conditions that can affect order fill sequence and other maker responsibilities such as shows, warranties etc that have an affect on delivery time.

Yes the maker (not the customer) owns his/her list but for the community to remain healthy "fair play" needs to be part of the equation.


I hope by makers sharing here collectors will be more tolerant to things that "happen".
 
I think as long as makers are up front about it, then it's fine.

I.E., up on their web site it says something like "Such-and-such (military, LEO, etc.) customers have priority on orders."

I do think that if a maker gives a delivery date or time, barring extreme circumstances, they should keep their word.
 
Kevin, since there have been several threads and posts on this subject, it's time to re-consider every knife order I've placed with every maker. There was a time when I'd simply not wait for a knife, no matter who the maker. I re-thought it, and decided to have a wait, here and there.

However, time to re-think my previous inclination to be ok with waits - time to go back to simply not waiting for anything. Consequently, I'm cancelling all orders but one. This has nothing to do with your thread here, it's just time to do it, and frankly if a maker wants in my collection (this is not conceit, it's just turning the tables on the theme, a bit - spark a little healthy debate?), he can make me a knife sooner than later.

Besides, a maker with, say, a one year backlog doesn't really need my order, does he? At least, not yet.

There's A TON of quality knives by quality makers on the secondary market that there is nothing one really should need to wait for, huh? Then again, I am a little picky, so it'll still be tricky.

Best,

Bob
 
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I think it can be a touchy business practice if makers let other buyers 'bump in the wait line'.

To me as a customer that is saying "This person is more important then you are and his/her money is more valued to me." I also think that in certain circumstances it would be ok so long as the maker/buyer are in contact and work out the details. I think mis-communication or false promises are worse than the actual wait. Again, communication is key.

How many of us would frequent a restaurant if when we arrived we were told there is a 1 hr wait and we put our name on the list... then we see other people come in after us and their name gets put ahead of ours on the list and they get to eat before we do??? This same example could be used on many other consumer type issues.

It's an interesting thread and I'll enjoy seeing what others have to say.
 
? Do you own your place in line?

What I would find interesting is a Futures Market where you can Buy and Sell Your Place In Line.
 
Well I am going to site the theories and business practices of 2 very good makers and friends of mine

The first Bill Bagwell

Bill has a 2 year back order he assigns a month that the knife will be due and he collects no deposit. When he starts your knife he calls you and says pay me if you can't you go to the back of the list or maybe you can pick up a cancellation spot. He is usually very close to staying on schedule and as long he is on schedule if he wants to build a knife for himself or a friend he is free to do so he owes no one money because he did not collect any in advance. His business practices are unquestionable and his order book is full . He has been out there making for 40 years at least and this is what works for him.


Second example Jason Knight

Jason realized long ago that taking orders for knives he did not want to make was not his cup of tea. He did not want to make what some collector thought would be a great knife he wanted to make what he knew would make a great knife. He could have a couple year back log to say the least. Jason does limited runs of designs he likes to do and if someone calls him with a project and he likes it he is free to do it. Again this is what works for him.

Both these makers work is highly in demand and when a blade becomes available they sell quickly. They have different approaches but succeed in the same goal satisfied customers.

You may not like Bills or Jason chooseing not to make what you want or the way they structure there businesses but they do not get bothered with complaints and having to make things that they choose to put off because they do not want to make it. By the way both men will help out active service members with wait time as all good makers should

As for makers who take money and then don't prouduce what they are supposed to produce and go on making other peoples knives this is a poor business practice but if a maker is up to date on his orders in my mind he can make what ever he wants for who ever he wants when ever he wants just like Karl did . Karl knows the benefit of doing business the old fashion way. I never hear anyone say Karl is not up to date and we all know in business you cater to good customers that is just called doing business.
 
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betzner said:
Kevin, since there have been several threads and posts on this subject, it's time to re-consider every knife order I've placed with every maker. There was a time when I'd simply not wait for a knife, no matter who the maker. I re-thought it, and decided to have a wait, here and there.

However, time to re-think my previous inclination to be ok with waits - time to go back to simply not waiting for anything. Consequently, I'm cancelling all orders but one. This has nothing to do with your thread here, it's just time to do it, and frankly if a maker wants in my collection (this is not conceit, it's just turning the tables on the theme, a bit - spark a little healthy debate?), he can make me a knife sooner than later.

Besides, a maker with, say, a one year backlog doesn't really need my order, does he? At least, not yet.

There's A TON of quality knives by quality makers on the secondary market that there is nothing one really should need to wait for, huh? Then again, I am a little picky, so it'll still be tricky.

Best,

Bob
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Bob, I of course respect your collecting philosophy, however it doesn't work for me as the interaction with the maker and participating to some small degree in the creation of the knife is a big part of the overall enjoyment of the collecting experience for me.

For example, my current involvement with Bruce Bump in his creating my newest knife has been incredibly enjoyable and rewarding. From our conversations and e-mails over the last few months, from the deciding what he would make me, to the material selection, to the "what if we did it this way?", to seeing Bruce identify and solve issues, to getting a chance to meet and spend time with Jere Davidson. It's ALL a part of why I'm crazy about custom knives.

Bruce just e-mailed to inform me that Doug Turnbull had finished with the color-cased hardening and was sending the pieces back. We are both very excited and looking forward to seeing it.

And most all of my special order maker builds are this way. If I gave this up I may lose interest in collecting custom knives.
 
Kevin Jones said:
Bob, I of course respect your collecting philosophy, however it doesn't work for me as the interaction with the maker and participating to some small degree in the creation of the knife is a big part of the overall enjoyment of the collecting experience for me.

For example, my current involvement with Bruce Bump in his creating my newest knife has been incredibly enjoyable and rewarding. From our conversations and e-mails over the last few months, from the deciding what he would make me, to the material selection, to the "what if we did it this way?", to seeing Bruce identify and solve issues, to getting a chance to meet and spend time with Jere Davidson. It's ALL a part of why I'm crazy about custom knives.

Bruce just e-mailed to inform me that Doug Turnbull had finished with the color-cased hardening and was sending the pieces back. We are both very excited and looking forward to seeing it.

And most all of my special order maker builds are this way. If I gave this up I may lose interest in collecting custom knives.
Click to expand...

Kevin, I understand all of the above completely. The knife making industry requires all of us collectors and makers to make it a success, not just some of us. I'm simply contributing my thoughts to the thread, not making any pronouncements about what the right path is for a collector.

Best,

Bob

EDIT: In fact, I think Karl put it best: "There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures - right next to the mashed potatoes."

EDIT: Incidentally, a HELLUVA good thread!
 
Kevin Jones said:
And collectors, how do you feel about this subject in general?

1. Should the maker stick strictly to his/her list?

2. Are there perfectively good reasons for filling orders out of sequence?

3. Should collectors who support an individual maker the most get preferential treatment?[/b]

I thank you in advance for your interest and participation and PLEASE lets try to keep this thread productive.
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Some familiar axioms, also in order:

#1: The policies, regulations, procedures, and fees for our services are subject to change without prior notice.

#2. He who has the gold, makes the rules.

#3. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

I know I am being sarcastic on a serious subject. Nonetheless, one thing has been presented for years and years, that makers are independent knifemakers first and businessmen second. I wouldn't expect this to change dramatically. Our conversations here and on the GB&U determine a hierarchy.

That said, If *I* as a businessperson went strictly by some exacting timeline rules, eventually, I'd piss everyone off. Really. This is something that looks good on paper, and yet is a fallible method.

One thing is also certain: The more we broadcast that successful Knifemaking is a business, the more predictible/gratifying it should be.

Coop
 
betzner said:
Kevin, I understand all of the above completely. The knife making industry requires all of us collectors and makers to make it a success, not just some of us. I'm simply contributing my thoughts to the thread, not making any pronouncements about what the right path is for a collector.

Best,

Bob

EDIT: In fact, I think Karl put it best: "There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures - right next to the mashed potatoes."

EDIT: Incidentally, a HELLUVA good thread!
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I totally agree Bob. The best way is the way that brings the individual collector the most enjoyment.
 
Kevin and I discused this the other day that maybe the CKCA should do some business courses for makers and enlist some makers that run there knife business successfully to help with these programs along with other sucessful business people . Not all artists make good business men and vice versa
 
JParanee said:
Kevin and I discused this the other day that maybe the CKCA should do some business courses for makers and enlist some makers that run there knife business successfully to help with these programs along with other sucessful business people . Not all artists make good business men and vice versa
Click to expand...

I would definately be interested in those classes. Love the knifemaking part, hate the business part.
 
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