Hey, you butt in line?

it seems to me that custom knives is a relatively new and fast growing segment and that perhaps best business practices haven't really found legs yet.
I think that if CKCA were to offer some kind of education along these lines to knife makers, then the CKCA would be providing a huge service.
 
I would definately be interested in those classes. Love the knifemaking part, hate the business part.

We have been kicking this around. A Mon-Tues after Blade Show would make most sense for travel efficiencies. Perhaps we would have someone from outside the knife industry who is a proven business success or leader on the national level to do a seminar on business and marketing in general. Then also have several makers who have built successful knifemaking business tie this information into knives and knifemaking on the second day.

While the CKCA is a knife collectors organization, we have many knifemaker members and feel ALL MEMBERS benefit from business and marketing savvy knifemakers. Would be a win-win effort.

Not sure we could get enough knifemakers to attend to make it worthwhile.
 
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Just read this thread and Charlie and I have a question. We have four blades in the HT oven on their last temper cycle, seven blades hardened and ready for final grinding and polishing, Charlie has over heated two grinders working on nine integrals, I'm up to my elbows in stag dust working on a carved handle and my arms are so tired I can't lift them over my shoulders. We just got through drinking a coke and wondered if one of you collectors could tell us who gets to use the one grinder we have left running.

Just kidding guys, these threads tend to get too heavy real quick :D

As far as our list of orders. We will give preference to an active duty individual in the armed services. Our agreement on the construction of a knife is made with an individual and that is not transferable to anyone else without our approval. We usually try to make knives in the order that we take them, but sometimes it is easier, cheaper and much faster to make several of one model at one time than it is to make knives one at a time. It would mean that some customers would likely get a knife earlier than we predicted, but it would not mean that someone else would get a knife later than they thought they would.

Some of our best customers understand that the knives they have ordered have features that we do when we are in the mood to make that kind of knife. Most of that work is done after hours or on weekends and involves a great deal of hand work. We really appreciate their patience and try hard to fill their orders as soon as we can, but it always takes longer on these knives than a standard custom order. We explain all this at the time the order is placed and so far, have never had a problem.

None of our customers are under any obligation to purchase any knife that they have ordered and may cancel the order at any time. We will not take any prepayment or deposit no matter what materials are involved in making the knife. We encourage customers to contact us if they have questions and really appreciate customers that are patient and pay when their knives are ready.

We wish that customers, that can't take delivery of a custom knife that they have ordered, would cancel the order or at least let us know that they won't be taking delivery. If the customer cancels the order at any time or informs us that they can't take delivery of a completed knife, we will be glad to take an order from them at a future date. If they don't cancel the order or inform us that they can't take delivery when we notify them that the knife is ready, we will hold the knife for 30 days and then sell it as soon as we can. We would not be interested in taking another order from them at a later date.

We do try to run Twin Blades as a business and both of us have many years experience at managing a relatively large business. While many practices will work with nearly any business, knife making has its own set of problem areas and any business practice that is set up needs to be a work in progress. A business always needs to be able to adapt to the changing environment and this one is no different. Some of these changes, while necessary, can be hard to make and may not make everyone happy. One thing that we understand clearly is that for a business to be successful it must have satisfied customers. We have found over the years that it is easier and much cheaper to keep a customer satisfied than it is to find a new customer. We work very hard to keep our customers happy and it has paid off with repeat orders and developed friendships that we will always value.

While we run Twin Blades like a business because it is one, the reason we make knives is we enjoy doing it. If we stopped enjoying what we do every day, no amount of money would make this business profitable to us and we would move on to something else. I don't see that happening! :D
 
1. Should the maker stick strictly to his/her list? What you should follow is not the list but the delivery date. Nobody cares where they are in line, if they know when they will get their knife.

2. Are there perfectively good reasons for filling orders out of sequence? No, not if you have a list. But if you give delivery dates not places on a list, who cares about the sequence?

3. Should collectors who support an individual maker the most get preferential treatment?[ NO. This is a big problem with some of the major knifemakers on this forum. Its obvious from the comments and sold knives that many makers who don't take orders, do take orders if the collector is "big" enough or a "friend". A maker should want to get his knives into as many hands as possible, not just into the hands of a select few. This should be done for many reasons, if not just for the imortality that comes through having your art in many places. Financially, when the select few liquidate their collection the maker's knive's prices will drop.
 
3. Should collectors who support an individual maker the most get preferential treatment?[ no. This is a big problem with some of the major knifemakers on this forum. Its obvious from the comments and sold knives that many makers who don't take orders, do take orders if the collector is "big" enough or a "friend". A maker should want to get his knives into as many hands as possible, not just into the hands of a select few. This should be done for many reasons, if not just for the imortality that comes through having your art in many places. Financially, when the select few liquidate their collection the maker's knive's prices will drop.


+1.....
 
Brownshoe nailed it when he said dileivery dates.
I like to give myself a little time between orders, this helps keep me from getting worn out and burned out only working on orders and allows me time to work on different ideas I'd like to pursue, don't get me wrong, orders are a good thing but we all need a little break to play a little, you might say. I'm a strong believer in treating people the way I want to be treated, so a delivery date helps me treat my customers better by delivering on time if not a little sooner.

Bill
 
I like to give myself a little time between orders, this helps keep me from getting worn out and burned out only working on orders and allows me time to work on different ideas I'd like to pursue, don't get me wrong, orders are a good thing but we all need a little break to play a little, you might say. I'm a strong believer in treating people the way I want to be treated, so a delivery date helps me treat my customers better by delivering on time if not a little sooner.

Bill

I quite agree Bill. Makers not only need a break from orders, they need time and opportunity to pursue new designs and new methods, which the next few knives on the list may not offer.

If a maker decides he'll try his first damascus piece, or his first slipjoint, or his first automatic - or whatever - he shouldn't feel constrained from doing so by rigid adherence to an order list.

Problem is, if he likes the result and turns around and sells the knife, some ornery sort will bleat about how that buyer "jumped the list" or was shown favoritism because he is a "friend". Not a fair criticism, in my view.

Roger
 
I agree on the delivery dates , if a date ( or month/year ) are given , it should be adhered to. I understand things come up , and time-frames slip , that is understandable , to a degree. ( depending on if the maker is full or part time ).

I was on a makers list , quoted 3-6 months , after 3 years ( and constant reminders ) I gave up waiting ( I was told when I ordered I was 3rd in line for that model ) . I am no longer interested. During that time I saw knives delivered , it indeed bothered me , but only because it was the model I had ordered , if it had been other models , it wouldn't have bothered me a bit.

That soured me from getting on any makers lists every again.

Years later I change my mind and got on a couple makers lists , with the idea in my mind , that if it happens , it happens , if not that is fine. In the grand scheme of things , it's not life or death and won't define my existence.

One makers list I was on , he quoted a time-frame , time came , he came a calling , unfortunately it was during a time when my wife was going thru cancer treatments and I didn't have funds , I asked to be moved further down the list , how far is entirely up to him. He understood and agreed. Someday , when he comes a calling , I shall be ready , and it will have been worth the wait.
That maker is pure class , just like his slip-joints.
 
Harry, thanks for this detailed response. Absolutely on target, especially about adapting to a changing environment. You have to please clients, and adhering to a strict set of rules is a recipe for disappointment when they aren't met--from both ends.

Brownshoe, a smart response. It's almost too simple to be that good.

Coop
 
1. Should the maker stick strictly to his/her list? What you should follow is not the list but the delivery date. Nobody cares where they are in line, if they know when they will get their knife.

The communication and delivery time are the key, I feel. You just want to know where you stand, not who's in front of you.

I placed an order with a popular stock removal maker after seeing some of his work on this forum. I placed an order that was to be one year out. June '09, when it was to be due, I e-mailed and learned he was very busy, but would get to my order. He would let me know when he started it. A few months later, the same process took place. He said it was okay to touch base occasionally, but he would get to it. He would let me know when he started it. I have checked in a couple of more times, and my 'delivery date' is over one year late presently. I have no idea where I stand on it. I have not folded on this order, but if he has, I wish he would let me know. If he hasn't, I wish he would give me an indication of its delivery.

Just be up front. It is not that hard. I am fairly easy to get along with. Most of us would be fine in most situations with good communication from the maker, I feel.

- Joe
 
I'm was assuming the "order list", "delivery list", "delivery date" were usually all in the same.
The order list contains such information but not necessarily limited to: Customer name/contact information; Style knife/details; date ordered; and projected delivery date.
I say projected delivery date as I would recommend that makers explain to customers that there are many conditions that may affect the actually delivery date. Communication is key.

Considering filling special orders is only one task of many for makers, I would assume order list/delivery dates are spread out allowing time for making show knives, special projects, dealing with warranties and such.

I wasn't suggesting that any customer should know (or need to know, for that matter) whose in front or back of them on the list. It's doesn't matter if the maker delivers knives on, or near on time. When it gets sticky for the maker is when he gets behind and collectors talk and/or see posts on forums and realize that other collectors who ordered knives after them are getting knives before them.
 
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.....When it gets sticky for the maker is when he gets behind and collectors talk and/or see posts on forums and realize that other collectors who ordered knives after them are getting knives before them.

:thumbup:

Or the collectors know each other...have a "friendly" competition, and the maker likes one better than the other and pushed him up the list, and everybody is talking about it, because the community is small.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I quite agree Bill. Makers not only need a break from orders, they need time and opportunity to pursue new designs and new methods, which the next few knives on the list may not offer.

If a maker decides he'll try his first damascus piece, or his first slipjoint, or his first automatic - or whatever - he shouldn't feel constrained from doing so by rigid adherence to an order list.

Problem is, if he likes the result and turns around and sells the knife, some ornery sort will bleat about how that buyer "jumped the list" or was shown favoritism because he is a "friend". Not a fair criticism, in my view.

Roger

Roger, I guess it comes down to you can't please everyone all the time. I don't take deposits on orders but I do give a delivery date, I also don't consider a sale final until the customer has the knife in hand and approves of it in person. If I haven't passed that date on delivering a customers knife then he/she shouldn't be upset. If they do get upset because I made and sold a knife publicly before their delivery date, then their welcome to cancel and contact someone else about making their knife. A person thats not pressured does a better job for his customer, As in any profession, but I do believe that the maker is obligated to deliver the order on set date , barring illness or death. People on the most part are very reasonable and understanding if treated honestly, there are a few that you can't please no matter how hard you try. I think those are the ones that would get upset if they think someone else is getting favored, even though they have no right to. I haven't had that problem yet but when I do I'll send them to Nick Wheeler. :D:D

Bill
 
I'm glad that I was wrong about the assessment I gave this thread in my first post. There has been a lot of good ideas floated and a lot of class shown.
:):thumbup:
 
I tend to think of adherence to delivery dates in terms of percentages. If I was quoted 6 months and it took 8 (33% over) I would be disappointed, but could understand and accept it.

50% over deadline, as in quoted a year and it takes 18 months, would definitely be approaching my limit of understanding. Anything longer than that would mean either (1) the maker grossly misrepresented the delivery date in the first place, or (2) they took on too many special projects or "butt-ins". I don't see either of those as acceptable.

Special circumstances which would preclude the maker from working, would of course nullify the previous criteria. In such a case though, I feel the maker should contact his/her customers to let them know what was going on and how long work might be delayed. Life happens.
 
Hey Joe, you are lucky. I have an order of 4 knives with a maker since 2002 and have not seen nary a one of them. Doubt I ever will. Was going to create a collection of some of his work as I had 3 others but have now, since, sold one. Two I'll keep though. I do know many others have received knives by this maker ordered many years after my order. Do I place many orders? Nope!! I tend to buy what I like and if it can be found via a show, trade, personal contact, etc that is much better for me. Then again, I only have a small but modest collection.
 
People on the most part are very reasonable and understanding if treated honestly, there are a few that you can't please no matter how hard you try. I think those are the ones that would get upset if they think someone else is getting favored, even though they have no right to.

Amen to that.

Roger
 
The stage in a knife makers " career " unfortunately determines his relationship with clients. They start out and couldn't sell a knife if it came wrapped in $100 bills. And these would by the way be very sturdy and functional knives. At this point they will make anything your little heart desires. Next they develop a " style " and things start to roll. The final stage is when a self appointed forum guru or often times dealer with a vested interest announces them to be the " s**t ". They are now officially artiste ! Groupies with fists full of money bang on their hotel door and an entourage soon forms. This is the point where i personally would rather own a prison shank than one of their knives.


Johnny
 
The stage in a knife makers " career " unfortunately determines his relationship with clients. They start out and couldn't sell a knife if it came wrapped in $100 bills. And these would by the way be very sturdy and functional knives. At this point they will make anything your little heart desires. Next they develop a " style " and things start to roll. The final stage is when a self appointed forum guru or often times dealer with a vested interest announces them to be the " s**t ". They are now officially artiste ! Groupies with fists full of money bang on their hotel door and an entourage soon forms. This is the point where i personally would rather own a prison shank than one of their knives.


Johnny

1) I was not aware that forum "guru" status existed or that it could be attained by self-appointment.

2) If a maker has buyers with fists full of dollars banging on their hotel room doors, it is almost certainly for better reason than their having been "announced to be the s**t" by anyone.

3) What do you have against success?

I know plenty of makers in the category of highly sought after / hotel-room banging / waiting list long and closed / sell out every show / positive press and forum admiration etc. who conduct themselves with both professionalism and humility and command not only admiration, but respect, for doing so.

Are there jerks? Sure - human nature. But in my experience they are the exception that help define the rule. I think you generalize too broadly. You are welcome to think differently, of course. The world isn't running out of prison shanks anytime soon.

Roger
 
I think that working to fill orders from the order sheet is the simplest way of doing things and I try to do so.

Every once in a while a customer comes along and wants a knife for a special occasion or for a member of the military and I try to squeeze that one in.

On the point of deposits I ask for a small percentage on special designs that are not part of my normal line that I may have difficulty selling (it has happened in the past that customers cannot afford to pay and cancel their order at the last minute and I have been stuck with that knife for a couple of years ).

Then again I am not a maker backlogged for years or even for more than six months, I can't help think that if I began quoting backlogs in years instead of weeks it might make my work more collectable.

Every once in a while though there is a customer that asks for a design that I just cannot fall in love with and I find myself making excuses not to work on it until Carol demands that I get myself in gear and finish it.

On the economic side in order to give faster turnarounds the maker must have a large and varied inventory of materials in house to meet customer requests where long delivery times allow that maker to purchase materials for one knife at a time thus reducing inventory costs but leaving him at the mercy of the market as to quality and availability.

George
 
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