HI Spear Head/Knife Interest Thread

Steely_Gunz

Steely_Gunz

Got the Khukuri fevah
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OK, thanks to all of your guys and your input, Yangdu seems to think that the kamis might get some benefit from me sending my old Bushman knife to be studied for a spear/knife combo blade.

I plan on sending the knife out to Yangdu Monday or Tuesday so that she can get it in the hands of the kamis. In the mean time, what kind of thing would you guys and gals like to see?

The idea behind this blade is to be a functional spear tip that is capable being wielded like a knife and perform knife chores, yet somehow affixed to a shaft (that'll be up to you to make on your own, guys and dolls) by slipping over it.

What are we thinking? Single edge or double edge? Martial/Combat knife or practical camping tool when in knife form? Length? Finish? (my vote goes with the uber-sexy black scale left on:D) Does it need a forged guard like the trisul or does the it need to be forged in such a way so that the handle is centered enough that the fingers will not slip up onto the blade?

Any an all ideas are welcome. I think we'll probably end up with something like the kamis version of the Bushman. However, if we get a good proof of concept, they might really be able to crank out some good designs that are socketed.

What do ya'll think?

A special thank you needs to go out to our new member Sioraiocht and all the fine guys that participated in this thread in the Cantina:thumbup: You guys rock:)

OK, gimme ideas:p
 
I'd like to see something not completely double-edged, but with a sharpened false edge 1/3 to 1/2 of the length, around 18" overall with 12" of blade, and about 3/8" thick. With the black scale look.
 
+1 to the above.

I wouldn't mind a substantial guard, but my main purpose would be to use it as a boar spear.
 
I'm sure any pics or drawings would be more than appreciated. Back when Dan Koster frequented the boards, he'd CAD up some drawings and tweak them as we discussed what we wanted:D
 
Agreed. This needs to be a pretty thin piece. If nothing else, maybe a thicker stock for the main body hammered out a thinner edge and socket. I'm really interested in what they might come up with.
 
Cpl Punishment said:
+1 to the above.

I wouldn't mind a substantial guard, but my main purpose would be to use it as a boar spear.
Click to expand...

Ditto here. As I said in my first post, this would be my use for a polearm. However, for boars, I'd start with the Smatchet head, recently introduced here, and just add some lugs or flanges.
 
A kumar karda-style 10-12" long blade would be perfect. Then we just need two holes in the handle for attachment to a shaft.

John, major spear fan.
 
Hi All,

I like the bushman, as a knife anyway. I have a couple of grumps about it, but overall it's a good design for what it does.

I'd say that doing knockoffs of Cold Steel designs is a waste of time, because Cold Steel does a pretty good, cheap design anyway. Why bother?

Questions are, a) what could the kamis do better, and/or b) what do we *need*

a) What the kamis could do better are things like:
--traditional Nepalese spearheads. If there are any still in use, it would be nice to have copies. I've read of a trident carried as a walking stick by a rural postman, for instance.
--Something like a bushman knife (a one-piece knife that doubles as a socketed head), but with a leaf-shaped blade, so that it can be used as a spear. That's my major grumble about the Bushman, that it doesn't stab straight.
--I'm tempted to ask for the kinds of sharp ferules and/or thin blades that could be fitted on a walking stick to make it better for self-defense, but given American concealed weapons laws, that's probably a bad idea. Still, that would be nice too :)


My 0.002 cents,

F
 
fearn said:
Hi All,
a) What the kamis could do better are things like:
--traditional Nepalese spearheads. If there are any still in use, it would be nice to have copies.
Click to expand...

YES!!! This would be a grand idea, and one that I was thinking about, only last night! For especially after seeing that portrait of Raja Prithvinarayan Shah (who carries not only a Kukri, but a saber, and presumably used other weapons), I've been wondering what the other traditional nepali weapons were. After all, even now, the Kukri is carried as part of a complement of weapons, not by itself.


I've read of a trident carried as a walking stick by a rural postman, for instance.
Click to expand...

Like the brandistocks of old Europe?


--Something like a bushman knife (a one-piece knife that doubles as a socketed head), but with a leaf-shaped blade, so that it can be used as a spear. That's my major grumble about the Bushman, that it doesn't stab straight.
Click to expand...

I hate to beat a dead horse, but that almost brings us right back to the Smatchet. But please interpret that to mean, "I agree."

Here's another thought: I understand that there is precedent for kukri-style bayonets, and if this could be adapted, it would make a worthwhile adaptation for some kinds of longarms, from more modern, military weapons to old-style single-shots and muzzle-loaders. That would have its merits for boar-spearing and -hunting, too.
 
Hi Nicholas,

Good old Richard Burton, in his Book of the Sword commented on those Yataghan bayonets you're talking about. His take was basically that a bayonet is a good weapon, and a yataghan (read khukuri with less curve, if you don't know yataghans) is a great weapon. The combination, unfortunately, was an ugly weapon, because it didn't stab well (too much weight forward, and the point was offline), and it didn't chop well either, because it was basically a chopper on the end of a short pole, secured by a lug.

Nothing wrong with a bayonet, but I've got to agree with most of the 20th century militaries--a bayonet needs to have a good point, and it needs a good utility blade. As everyone knows, I'm not a rifle expert, and someone else will have to say whether it makes sense for the kamis to crank out a generic bayonet.

I agree with you otherwise. My understanding was that the trident was an honest to goodness three-pointed spear.

Another thing I'd dearly love to have from the kamis is either a burmese style dha or a Assam style dao. See Mark Bowditch's site for lots and lots of lovely examples.

For something truly different, how about a Mak? It would give "big mac attack" a whole new meaning.

F
 
fearn said:
Hi Nicholas,

Good old Richard Burton, in his Book of the Sword commented on those Yataghan bayonets you're talking about. His take was basically that a bayonet is a good weapon, and a yataghan (read khukuri with less curve, if you don't know yataghans) is a great weapon. The combination, unfortunately, was an ugly weapon, because it didn't stab well (too much weight forward, and the point was offline), and it didn't chop well either, because it was basically a chopper on the end of a short pole, secured by a lug.
Click to expand...

<sigh> I should have remembered that: I used to have that book, when I was a kid.

For something truly different, how about a Mak? It would give "big mac attack" a whole new meaning.

F
Click to expand...

To say nothing of the phrase "Mac Daddy"!
 
I still think that an HI type 30 sabre bayonet would be awesome, especially one compatible with an AR-15. For those interested in esoteric martial arts, the type 30 is the most compatible with the japanese bayonet fencing style Jukendo. Unfortunately its hard to find someone who can teach you this art, because it got a bad rap after the rape of nanking (understandibly).

There really isn't anything special about the 30 itself other than it's geometry, but that's where the Differentially hardened HI version comes in.

Oh yeah, in case you wanted to know jukendo loosely translates to Way of the Gun Sword.

I think our main question for this spear thing is whether it is an optimized spear, in which case I suggest a cross guard and short blade, or a hardcore survival knife, in which case I suggest taking one of the HI knives and making it into a spear.
 
Well, I can't find any Nepalese Spears online, just Tibetan ones, the heads of which seem to be rather needle-like affairs:

wah4001.jpg


tibetan_13.R.jpg
tibetan_18.R.jpg



However, getting slightly off the subject of spears, I found this 15-year-old portrait of some other, traditional Nepali weapons:

scan2.jpg


I believe that this leaves us with the katar, the tulwar, the kora, a modest-sized, round shield, and another sword that I can't name, which looks a bit like a large, deadly butter knife (help here, anyone?)

Anyway, this seems to be where any insight into Nepali spearheads begins........
 
Wow! My dreams are coming true. Well, sorta. I love the idea of a spear, and you guys are working to make it come into my hands. And funny enough, my birthday was on the 9th, and just a couple days late I pop in and see an unexpected gift from people who didn't have any idea. You guys are the greatest!
 
The one next to the sabers and the shield? Yes, you seem to be right; I just found the Wikipedia article. You threw me at first, though: I thought that you meant the knife from the Khukuri sheath!
 
Nicholas said:
Here's another thought: I understand that there is precedent for kukri-style bayonets, and if this could be adapted, it would make a worthwhile adaptation for some kinds of longarms, from more modern, military weapons to old-style single-shots and muzzle-loaders. That would have its merits for boar-spearing and -hunting, too.
Click to expand...

FRANCE%201840-52.jpg


This is a Model 1842 French yataghan sword bayonet. The French army adapted these things in 1840, and everyone's army copied them at some point in the 19th century, when people were still Napoleon-struck and the French army still had a great reputation. There is an interesting historical page about them here:

http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/yataghan%20models.htm

I had an opportunity to handle one of these turkeys, an 1866 Chassepot bayonet with Japanese arsenal markings in the fuller. I didn't have a Chassepot to mount it on, but I must agree with Burton on its uselessness as a sword. Its designers got every detail wrong: ox clumsy, balanced like a tomahawk, no edge (never sharpened) and the skinny brass handle was atrocious. When Japanese armorers designed their own sword bayonet in 1880, they came up with something quite different.

murt13bayoongun.jpg


It has a 22 3/8" blade with a 6" sharpened back edge, 3/8" thick at the crossguard and distally tapered. Mounts on the right side of the rifle, I don't know why they did that. Bayonets are not my thing and I don't think I'd enjoy lugging this one over hill and dale. But the armorer who designed it was probably trained in the use of polearms, and this is what he thought would turn a Murata Type 13 rifle into a useable pike.
 
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Yeah, that yataghan is too darn long for a spearhead, and that downward slope would be bad for a spear.
 
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