HI western-design inspired passarounds – discussion thread

[Howard Wallace]

I really get a kick when I see some top-notch western bladesmiths playing with the khukuri design. It makes me think of how much influence HI and the kamis have had in bringing appreciation of the khukuri to the west. A few decades ago it was not unusual for people to describe khukuris as trash knives. You don’t hear that much anymore, due in large part to the exposure of knowledgeable westerners to high-quality Nepalese khukuris.

There is an asymmetry between the untouchable blacksmiths of Nepal and the relatively wealthy bladesmiths of the west. We westerners have easy access to the internet, bladeshows, forums, etc., and we can draw inspiration from the multitude of designs we are exposed to. How many western bladesmiths can say they were not influenced at all by the design (for instance) of the Randall #1.

The kamis do not have this wide access to classic designs. They draw their inspiration from things they know in their own culture, but are limited in what they see from outside.

The last time I went to Nepal I took over some classic blades. A Randall #1 I picked up a couple of decades ago in the Randall shop in Florida, a Blackjack Trailguide from the Effingham days, and a knock-off of a Grohmann #1. Each is a classic design that has been influential on our western traditions. The kamis have looked them over, and drawn some inspiration from them to come up with their own interpretations, handforged in 5160 spring steel.

I am going to start some passaround threads so we can get some exposure to these efforts. Previous interpretations of western designs from the kamis have drawn comments and discussion of questions like:

Are we corrupting a pure, unsullied tradition by exposing the kamis to western designs?
Is it ethical for Nepalese kamis to draw inspiration from a design created in the west?
Are we misdirecting talent that could be better utilized creating khukuris from their own tradition?
Etc…

I ask the help of the forumites to gently direct discussion of those and similar discussions to this thread, where the concepts can be explored without cluttering up the passaround threads.

Stay tuned for the passaround threads.

 

[1066vik]

I see nothing wrong with showing the kamis other blade styles. The Nepalese have been exposed to other types of knife for as long as there have been people carrying knives along the trade routes through the area. (bowie, "katana", E-nep, etc...) -- obviously from the interpretation of the Randall #1, the maker did not lose his cultural identity.

Whichever Kami made the "Trailguide", it's a very good looking & true to the original interpretation. I like it.

 

[arbiter]

Variety is the spice of life,so it is said.I don't think it is a corrupting influence to expose the kami's to other blade types,and I would point to the AK bowie as an example of the good that can come from it.I do hope that they don't spend too much time making blades other than kukris,though,as their is a lot of ground to cover within that genre.

 

[Karda]

I don't have a problem with kami's drawing influence from western designs per se... but... i do feel that designs should not be copied vebatim and that some designs are better left alone.
IMHO...especially since supply is outstripping demand that H.I should focus on it's main product...the khukuri and keep that foremost at all times. Like it or not, the art is dying and every effort should be made to encourage the craft of khukuri making in its pure form to keep it alive for as many generations as possible. I wish we could document the techniques thru the written word and film. Once the last bishwakharma has stopped pounding steel, we will be lost and starting from scratch. I would give my left ear right now to be able to apprentice with the likes of the royal kami.

 

[jdk1]

I see no problem with the kamis being exposed to/recreating western designs. Is the khukuri not a Greek kopis adaptation? I like some of the western influenced HI designs a lot. I also agree with Karda that khukuri should be the HI mainstay. I would like the kamis to concentrate on bringing the authentic khuk to the market. The khuk weights are coming down and we are seeing some nice variations. I would prefer the western overbuilt mindset not crossover and spoil the essence of what has made the khuk the ideal woods tool for hundreds of years. As long as the kamis understand we want them to create both, not solely meld them together, I see a win-win situation. Combo designs are great, but the authentic khukuri is what brought most, if not all, of us here. It would be very interesting to be watching Nat Geo in twenty years and see a Nepali villager using an AK Bowie though! Interesting topic and thanks for allowing us cantinistas to take part. The bottom line for me is to keep the kamis focused on producing what their grandfathers made (with slight variation), but with some new designs on the side.

 

[Issun]

the spread of knowledge and the progression of craft is an important tool in improving quality of life. I think it would be awesome if there was a good way for the best Kamis in Nepal to share how exactly they make their khukuris, there is some great photo documentation on the HI website right now, but I have no clue if other knife makers in other parts of the world could duplicate the technique. Perhaps the technique is simple and just the documentation that is available is enough, but I know nothing of knifemaking....
to get to the point, it would be a shame if the knowledge was lost, but its also important that the Nepali knifemakers continue to make whatever they want to make. I understand the sentimental reasons that we want a khukuri made by a kami who has 500 years of legacy making khukuris... but that’s not reason to say that "you must do exactly as your grandfather did" Due to tradition Nepal has some of the greatest knifemakers in the world, but I think the greatest success that could come from something like Himalayan Imports is if their Kamis could become wealthy enough to send their children to college, to let them become an expert in whatever they wish to become.
still with such a talent comes the responsibility of preserving that talent, it is up to those that know the art of making khukuris to make sure that it is not lost to future generations

 

[Karda]

but I think the greatest success that could come from something like Himalayan Imports is if their Kamis could become wealthy enough to send their children to college, to let them become an expert in whatever they wish to become.

While Noone involved in this is getting wealthy, The Kamis children are getting a good education and private schooling. If we can get them in college we will. Thank to H.I., Steve Ferguson and generous donations from wonderful forumites we've already graduated one kami's son from medical school:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...egacy.-Sending-a-kami-s-son-to-Medical-School

 

[Zixinus]

I would doubt that Western bladesmiths are all rolling in cash. I can't speak to know anyone's finances, but I would wager that it looks like the writing industry: a few hotshots get rich, while the rest just make an average or so wage.

Are we corrupting a pure, unsullied tradition by exposing the kamis to western designs?

Unless you think that the traditional designs are holy and perfect, no. Kamis are not stupid, they'll do what any good bladesmiths or craftsmen do: take good ideas and use them in their own way.

Unless something drastic happens, the kamis will still make traditional kukris.

In fact, what may be "new" today may be normal tomorrow, classic after that and beyond that, traditional. Knives are not shaped to look exactly like knapped stone now, are they?

Is it ethical for Nepalese kamis to draw inspiration from a design created in the west?

Unless you want to bring up copyright issues and laws, yes. Forcing isolated development is counterproductive and hinders development. There is another side of the horse to fall off, but I doubt that'll happen or an issue that needs to be discussed.

Are we misdirecting talent that could be better utilized creating khukuris from their own tradition?

Unless you're forcing them, no. Why would it? To the kamis, the kukri isn't something special or holy (okay, they're blessed but I don't think that the blessing is specially for the kukri). To them, the kukri is just a pattern or design. Why would it change things if you shown them different designs or patterns? Why would the value of their work deminish if they adept Western design ideas or techniques? If anything, they should improve as they learn new things and combine their knowledge.

There is value in preserving and protecting tradition but I have to ask: would there be a point in sticking utterly to traditional method? Making knives in a shed, using a hand-blower operated by an apprentice, using a watering can and simple eyeballs for heat-treating while taking either steel stolen from a junkyard or smelted by hand? There is no reason to deny kamis technological progress, no matter how little they can afford (compared to us Westerners anyway).

One can raise the question of the nature of change and whether we would like to see the kukris made by HI change. I will speak for myself: as long as the kukri I get is good and as long as it's still made by kamis who get my money for their work, I see no problem.

That said, HI products going all tacticool would be a somewhat frightening way to fall off the other side of the horse.

hank to H.I., Steve Ferguson and generous donations from wonderful forumites we've already graduated one kami's son from medical school:

Not to belittle this archivement, but wouldn't it be better if the kami would be able to afford this without special fundraisers?

 

[Karda]

Unless you're forcing them, no. Why would it? To the kamis, the kukri isn't something special or holy (okay, they're blessed but I don't think that the blessing is specially for the kukri). To them, the kukri is just a pattern or design. Why would it change things if you shown them different designs or patterns? Why would the value of their work deminish if they adept Western design ideas or techniques? If anything, they should improve as they learn new things and combine their knowledge.

There is value in preserving and protecting tradition but I have to ask: would there be a point in sticking utterly to traditional method? Making knives in a shed, using a hand-blower operated by an apprentice, using a watering can and simple eyeballs for heat-treating while taking either steel stolen from a junkyard or smelted by hand? There is no reason to deny kamis technological progress, no matter how little they can afford (compared to us Westerners anyway).

One can raise the question of the nature of change and whether we would like to see the kukris made by HI change. I will speak for myself: as long as the kukri I get is good and as long as it's still made by kamis who get my money for their work, I see no problem.

I would ask that you read more before making some of these statements.

To the Kami's the khukuri is NOT just a pattern for a knife. Not only is it their national symbol. It is a source of pride and honor. In some parts of the religion there, it is even worshipped at an altar as a conduit to deity.
The khukuri's themselves are blessed, in a ceremony just for them. In that ceremony it is asked of the gods and hoped that it never has to be drawn in anger against another.
Most Kami's prefer the traditional methods they were taught over modern knifesmithing, because frankly, they understand the importance of old tradition and keeping their way of simple knifesmithing alive. You could buy them a modern forge and teach them to use it, only to find it sitting while they pound steel in the time honored manner on their coal forge on the ground.

Not to belittle this archivement, but wouldn't it be better if the kami would be able to afford this without special fundraisers?

In a perfect world yes, but in Nepal it doesnt work that way. Without Uncle and Auntie doing what they've done and we continue, the kamis would be selling their wares in Kathmandu to tourists for alot less money. Their children would probably not go to school at all then.

 

[cfoster2003]

As a third party observer to this conversation I appreciate the knowledge shared by Kara. I learn more and more about HI every day and appreciate and respect the Kamis more and more.

 

[Bladite]

simply put, there are some designs so unique to a given maker that it is their soul, and it would a shame, and a dilution to see such things copied outright, and sold by others for profit. even supposing that various patent, copyright, and trade laws applied, and were legally thwwarted, it's still wrong imho.

one of those pass around in particular, #2, is too darn close to the original Grohmann, imho, as their #1 mainstay pattern. it's THE "Canadian" pattern knife (imho). other companies have played around with the concept, but only one so far has been bold enough to copy the thing exactly (and cheaply). it's kind of insulting.

if a given design were out of print, as it were, and unavailable as a rule, and not someone's pet design, coming up with something like it seems reasonable. i can point to several HI designs, the Bonecutter, in particular - it's like, yet unlike the handful of originals. it's notably different as well (as long as it's made as i specified - full tang in particular). even the blade shape is a bit different. sgt khadka came up with his own thing based on ideas presented to him. good.

hitting up a website and seeing copies of well known brand knives? not good.

go copy a Busse design, and you'll be hearing lawyers before sundown. some designers just don't have the deep pockets to pursue forgeries though.

my three cents

 

[Zixinus]

Most Kami's prefer the traditional methods they were taught over modern knifesmithing, because frankly, they understand the importance of old tradition and keeping their way of simple knifesmithing alive. You could buy them a modern forge and teach them to use it, only to find it sitting while they pound steel in the time honored manner on their coal forge on the ground.

In that case, they already made their own choices in the issue and this discussion is worthless.

 

[Karda]

In that case, they already made their own choices in the issue and this discussion is worthless.

How so? What issue? The discussion is not about wether they make their choices or not.

 

[Zixinus]

Here's another way to approach the question:

As a costumer to HI, would you prefer the kamis that work for HI to be preservers of tradition or be craftsmen that operate a business?

Because I think that's a more central question in this discussion.

Personally, I think they can do both. It's just that I would rather see the kamis do their work with the best tools that they would use and the best materials they can get.

How so? What issue? The discussion is not about wether they make their choices or not.

Disregard that. Didn't quite think that trough.

 

[Karda]

Here's another way to approach the question:

As a costumer to HI, would you prefer the kamis that work for HI to be preservers of tradition or be craftsmen that operate a business?

Because I think that's a more central question in this discussion.

Personally, I think they can do both. It's just that I would rather see the kamis do their work with the best tools that they would use and the best materials they can get.

Honestly Zix, If you read the posts in the "Link Library" and in the Archives most things would've been made clear.

With Himalayan Imports, making mass profit is not our concern. Our concern is to provide opportunity.
We are more concerned with preserving traditions before they are lost, while providing opportunities for these wonderful craftsmen and their families. Opportunities that they would not have otherwise, like an above average wage for work done, healthcare when they are sick....food, clothing, schooling for their families. A "workmans comp" type fund for when they are hurt and cannot work..... Shelter.
We do this with the means at hand. H.I. is not a large company, but a small father/daughter business with two small shops and limited means. Only so much can be done. It would be nice to have state of the art equipment, but that is not possible. Also, if we were to have such equipment, much of the heart and soul of these blades would be lost. New tooling costs money, new steel costs money. We use reclaimed steel because importing new steel is expensive and because leaf spring steel is readily available. It also acts as a "green effort" to use this steel. There is alot to be said about the time honored techniques that are used to make hand forged khukuri. In short, we ARE doing both, to the best of our ability....and always have.
All this depends on khukuri made and khukuri sold and help from generous forumites. This has always been. We will not change our business model to turn profit. That would be turning our back on the dharma path we walk and counter to Uncle Bills wishes and all that he stood for.

 

[ShamrockWill]

Very well put Karda!

 

[cfoster2003]

amen Karda

 

[Jaymo]

Well, I really like the way the Kamis take a Western design and make their own translation of it.
Case in point, AK Bowie. That has become my favorite Bowie design and I must have one.
I like every HI knife I've seen. I could be biased, since I own 3 HI knives.

I prefer the traditional method of knifemaking. I'm glad HI still makes them that way. I wouldn't like them nearly as much if they were just ground out of steel stock. I have 3 knives that none of my buddies have. I have 3 genuine Nepalese hand forged, high carbon steel knives with exotic wood and horn handles.
Anyone can grind a knife out of a piece of O1 and slap Micarta scales on it, but there's no soul or class to that.
I like all knives, I just prefer traditional designs and methods.
The HI way is the way for me.
I still want to see the kamis make some straight razors. Nonfolding, Japanese style would be easier to make, especially if they did away with the Japanese asymmetrical grind.
I'd buy and use one. I see plenty of straight razor collectors who have expensive, very nice Japanese razors, but none with Himalayan straight razors.

 

[Berkley]

The last time I went to Nepal I took over some classic blades. A Randall #1 I picked up a couple of decades ago in the Randall shop in Florida, a Blackjack Trailguide from the Effingham days, and a knock-off of a Grohmann #1. Each is a classic design that has been influential on our western traditions. The kamis have looked them over, and drawn some inspiration from them to come up with their own interpretations, handforged in 5160 spring steel.

I am going to start some passaround threads so we can get some exposure to these efforts. Previous interpretations of western designs from the kamis have drawn comments and discussion of questions like:

Are we corrupting a pure, unsullied tradition by exposing the kamis to western designs?
Is it ethical for Nepalese kamis to draw inspiration from a design created in the west?
Are we misdirecting talent that could be better utilized creating khukuris from their own tradition?
Etc…

Today's DOTD Everest katana sold in 8 minutes. No one seems to have a problem with the kamis producing that design, despite the fact that it has no counterpart in traditional Nepalese swords, nor was there ever any historical association between Nepal and Japan.
The popular chiruwa scale and rivet full width tang is a purely western design that was grafted on to the traditional kukri blade by the British for mass production purposes to equip their Gurkha troops in the World Wars.
HI proudly emphasizes the fact that its kukri grips are larger than traditional Nepalese styles to accommodate western hands.
These are just a few of the ways in which change has been welcomed into the HI lineup. The kamis, while respecting the traditional Nepalese designs, are proud artists in steel who take pleasure in demonstrating their skill by creating new variations and evolutionary creations.
I think they can continue to evolve in their craft while remaining rooted in their proud heritage.:thumbup:
I'm looking forward to being part of the passaround.

 

[Karda]

On the other side of the coin. I'm sure people have noticed that some of the other khukuri manufacturers usually end up producing similar styles to H.I. and have beefed up their product to try to compete in our niche in the market. Example: Forge finish blades....which are appearing all over the place within the last year.

Even some Knife makers take note. You can plainly see influence from us, as well as other manufacturers here:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/875122-Bill-Siegle-picture-thread.

I see Mr. Siegle lurking in here from time to time.

I often wonder if Busse, Kabar, Cold steel and others would've even bothered designing and making khukuri, if it were not for Uncle Bill and Auntie Yangdu's effort to introduce quality khukuri to the western world.

Competition is good. And as long as we arent blatantly ripping each other off designwise....It's all good.