HI western-design inspired passarounds – discussion thread

[Steve Tall]

...I have 3 knives that none of my buddies have. I have 3 genuine Nepalese hand forged, high carbon steel knives with exotic wood and horn handles...

Now there's a great "unsolicited testimonial".

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

I'm kinda torn on this one. On the one hand, I have to say, I came to HI for the khukuri, and I'll keep coming back for the khukuri, and I would hate to see the art get lost. That would be a tragedy. Plus, the social situation that pertains really gives me a good feeling about buying from HI; I know that I'm supporting a true artist who is, in my opinion, very much underappreciated in Nepal. I also am not sure that I want to see HI go all tacticool.

That being said, I have nothing against them trying out some other designs here and there, although I doubt those designs will ever mean as much to the kamis as the khukuri does. But it's that passion and love for the craft that really draws me to HI even more than the blade shape. I love khuks, and love collecting them. But I admit that I do like dressing up fixed blades as it is, and I can't say as how I would be sad to own a khuk with, say, a carbon fiber handle or something. I don't know if that counts as tacticool, but I could see that being very attractive. (I do hope never to see a Gunkote finished HI blade though).

If I were really pressed, I'd probably come down on the side of wanting to retain and maintain tradition. While I'll buy and try variations on the katana, for instance, there's just nothing quite the same as a traditionally made one, and the same holds true for the khukuri in my mind. I do wish that the kamis enjoyed the same status as master smiths do here though.

 

[wildmanh]

I have no problem with HI playing around with some western designs as long as they don't start making designs that are unique to a current company as someone else already mentioned.

Would love to see HI's take on the Western Shark Knife.

 

[Howard Wallace]

Thanks to all participants in this thread.

I can see several concerns for HI management. Among them:
What is legal in the jurisdictions where HI operates?
What is acceptable from the ethical viewpoint of HI management?
What is acceptable from the ethical viewpoint of HI customers?

All of the responses have helped to shed light to greater or lesser extents on these issues. The more specific you can be the better.

I will note that all three of the designs to which the kamis were recently exposed are currently being produced in variations by multiple western manufacturers/marketers, and also independent western bladesmiths. That fact does not invalidate a forumite’s opinion that it is not right to produce a variation of one or the other of the styles. However, the more light that can be shed on how you personally come to that conclusion, the more helpful your post is.

The elliptical design has been mentioned. I’ll note that it was available in the Herter’s catalog when I was a teenager in the 70’s, and variations are currently marketed by R. Murphy Knives and Cold Steel, as well as the possibility of independent western bladesmiths who experiment with elliptical shapes. I bring this to the attention of forumites here because it seems from comments above that some may not be aware of this data.

Thanks again for your good input.

 

[wildmanh]

Howard, if it's cool with you, I'd like to make a sheath for one or more of the passaround knives when I have them for testing. The sheath(s) would be made from 8-10oz Saddle Skirting (Brown or black), hand sewn with Waxed nylon thread and finished with Montana Pitch Blend like all my other sheaths.

-------------------------

As long as HI makes designs that aren't copywrited/patented, I'm cool with it. Here is what I know:

Knife #3 is based of a Blackjack/Randel pattern. A bunch of other companies make that same style knife so as far as I'm concerned HI can make them. Hi's verson looks pretty good too.

Same goes for #1. It's based off a knife that the SOG team used in Vietnam, SOG Knives, Cold Steel, Randel and others make it so no worries there. Blade looks a lot like some of the originals that I've seen pics of. Wondering how comfy the handle will be. A handle shape like the one on #3 would probably get more bites.

As for knife #2, I'm not sure of the status. It was designed by D.H. Russell and is called the Canadian Belt knife. Made by Grohmann knives. But is it a design that others can produce? This I do not know. If it's a pattern that others can produce, I don't mind if HI makes it.

 

[Bladite]

Thanks to all participants in this thread.

I can see several concerns for HI management. Among them:
What is legal in the jurisdictions where HI operates?
What is acceptable from the ethical viewpoint of HI management?
What is acceptable from the ethical viewpoint of HI customers?

All of the responses have helped to shed light to greater or lesser extents on these issues. The more specific you can be the better.

I will note that all three of the designs to which the kamis were recently exposed are currently being produced in variations by multiple western manufacturers/marketers, and also independent western bladesmiths. That fact does not invalidate a forumite’s opinion that it is not right to produce a variation of one or the other of the styles. However, the more light that can be shed on how you personally come to that conclusion, the more helpful your post is.

The elliptical design has been mentioned. I’ll note that it was available in the Herter’s catalog when I was a teenager in the 70’s, and variations are currently marketed by R. Murphy Knives and Cold Steel, as well as the possibility of independent western bladesmiths who experiment with elliptical shapes. I bring this to the attention of forumites here because it seems from comments above that some may not be aware of this data.

Thanks again for your good input.

so, ethically, i typically won't EVER buy a copy of a knife with current maker/manufacture/rights. especially true if i know the designers. exception: as research to see what the copy is like, and inform the owner of the intellectual property. it has been said that all things have been seen under the Sun, and that man's relationship with knives is OLD. still, how can we relate this to the 100s of new designs that are available every year? there's no reason to make Xerox copies make your own stuff man! cool! thumbup!

the elliptical knives... well, Herter's was the biggest copycat and marketeer of the century, next to some PT Barnums we know, he was the man (if you don't buy out thing, you're going to DIE, and the other stuff is JUNK)... He had murphy knives make his copies, with his name on them; now as it turns out Herters went out of biz, and Murphy felt they owned the design, and continue to make them. DH Russell/Grohmann have major rights in Canada and Europe as I understand it, but for odd reasons, cannot enforce those (or are unwilling to due to vast expense) in the USA. is it worth $$$,$$$$ to fight for your "rights" when you make $$,$$$ or even $,$$$ per year in sales? no? not really? Murphy made good copies, but compared to the real thing, are imho, a LITTLE rough. still, pretty good

cold steel is the biggest copier of Grohmann #1 that i know of. a bad copy even, BUT, a lot of people buy them, like them, and want the same but BETTER, so they buy the real thing. seem like advertising. most times, copies are not as good as the real thing. ironically, HI has at one product i can think of that's a direct copy of a cold steel item that as far as i know is unique on the market. some say it's better

the knife world is really small. everyone knows everyone. you copy someone's work, people know, word will spread. if you build your rep on your word, well...

innovate. it's easy. right?

 

[Karda]

so, ethically, i typically won't EVER buy a copy of a knife with current maker/manufacture/rights. especially true if i know the designers. exception: as research to see what the copy is like, and inform the owner of the intellectual property. it has been said that all things have been seen under the Sun, and that man's relationship with knives is OLD. still, how can we relate this to the 100s of new designs that are available every year? there's no reason to make Xerox copies make your own stuff man! cool! thumbup!

the elliptical knives... well, Herter's was the biggest copycat and marketeer of the century, next to some PT Barnums we know, he was the man (if you don't buy out thing, you're going to DIE, and the other stuff is JUNK)... He had murphy knives make his copies, with his name on them; now as it turns out Herters went out of biz, and Murphy felt they owned the design, and continue to make them. DH Russell/Grohmann have major rights in Canada and Europe as I understand it, but for odd reasons, cannot enforce those (or are unwilling to due to vast expense) in the USA. is it worth $$$,$$$$ to fight for your "rights" when you make $$,$$$ or even $,$$$ per year in sales? no? not really? Murphy made good copies, but compared to the real thing, are imho, a LITTLE rough. still, pretty good

cold steel is the biggest copier of Grohmann #1 that i know of. a bad copy even, BUT, a lot of people buy them, like them, and want the same but BETTER, so they buy the real thing. seem like advertising. most times, copies are not as good as the real thing. ironically, HI has at one product i can think of that's a direct copy of a cold steel item that as far as i know is unique on the market. some say it's better

the knife world is really small. everyone knows everyone. you copy someone's work, people know, word will spread. if you build your rep on your word, well...

innovate. it's easy. right?

And the bolded part, aside from the legal and ethical standpoint, is exactly why i'm reluctant to see H.I. go down this road and would much prefer that we stuck to innovating in the khukuri area. We do not need to potentially tarnish H.I.'s good name by producing copies.

 

[wildmanh]

And the bolded part, aside from the legal and ethical standpoint, is exactly why i'm reluctant to see H.I. go down this road and would much prefer that we stuck to innovating in the khukuri area. We do not need to potentially tarnish H.I.'s good name by producing copies.

Food for thought! I come to HI for the friendly atmosphere, the cool Eastern designs and old world craftsmanship. Even though I don't mind if they make something thats okay to make, maybe they should stick to Eastern designs and customs.

 

[Howard Wallace]

Howard, if it's cool with you, I'd like to make a sheath for one or more of the passaround knives when I have them for testing. The sheath(s) would be made from 8-10oz Saddle Skirting (Brown or black), hand sewn with Waxed nylon thread and finished with Montana Pitch Blend like all my other sheaths.

...

I think that would be really great and a good way to expose people to your work. Hopefully we can get some feedback on your sheaths also. Please find some way to make it obvious to the reviewers which sheath is yours and which is the HI sheath.

... Herter's was the biggest copycat and marketeer of the century, next to some PT Barnums we know, he was the man (if you don't buy out thing, you're going to DIE, and the other stuff is JUNK)...

He was a character for sure. I posted his rendition of the Virgin Mary's spinach recipie on my webpage here. It was her favorite, acording to Mr. Herter. His books and old catalogs are still available on e-bay, and are very entertaining reading. There is actually a lot of good stuff in them, amongst the hype.

 

[Ryan M]

Little late to the party, but that's never stopped be before. Going back to the original questions...

Are we corrupting a pure, unsullied tradition by exposing the kamis to western designs?
Is it ethical for Nepalese kamis to draw inspiration from a design created in the west?
Are we misdirecting talent that could be better utilized creating khukuris from their own tradition?

Personally, I'd say it'd be far more unethical to not encourage these guys to make as many different styles as they feel like. I can't tell you how many large knives, swords, etc., I've owned that have had very wonky balance, no chopping power, etc. It's the inevitable result of most modern stuff being ground out of mass-produced, perfectly flat bar stock that's already the thickness the knife will be. There's usually no consideration for weight, balance, performance, nothing. Just cut it into the shape of a knife, grind the bevels, sharpen it, ship it. Very, very few of the big box manufacturers do any design work beyond that. Whereas the hand-forging the kamis do mean they inevitably have to do dozens of minor modifications to the design on the fly, to make sure that the knife is good, and from what I've bought, they know what good actually is. Lively balance despite (often) very heavy overall weights, and the weight is concentrated where it needs to be, etc. About as far removed from poorly-designed ground bar stock as it gets. You generally need to pay thousands or more to get the same handling qualities from a "first world" bladesmith.

Heat treat is ridiculously inappropriate on most modern swords, too, even the supposedly "combat ready" ones. My Bura Dukti is about 3/16" thick for most of the length, with a broad, deep fuller, yet it's about as flexible as a 2x4. It's impossible to flex it at all by hand, and I'm obviously not going to put it in a vise or stand on it. That's how stiff a sword should be, but crappy movies and unethical manufacturers have given people the impression that a sword should flop around like a wet noodle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoQ91ORgAQc Compare that to the ridiculous spaghetti sticks Errol Flynn waved around, that were the only things on set thinner than his mustache, or to the ridiculous modern things that are allegedly "combat-ready," yet droop like a foil when held horizontally.

Tests on antique weapons indicate that this isn't anything particularly special to any one culture's blades, or anything. It's simply a "lost art," because the industrialized world is losing just about all of what I'd call its "functional heritage." Compare most of the "bowies" that were made yesterday to a 19th century example, and it's like an HI khukuri compared to the Cold Steel "kukri machete." Forms are remembered and preserved, functions are not. We can get repros that look like stuff from the past, but perform nothing like them. Meanwhile, the originals are locked in museums, and it's very difficult to get curators to let you take them out of the case and whack pork roasts with them!

And it wouldn't surprise me if, 500 years from now, Nepal will have lost the same amount of their functional heritage, and the only khukuris still being made will be more like that terrible machete. The kamis do need to bang out as many khukuris as they can, so they won't become cherished museum pieces, and Nepali culture won't lose what most of the rest of the world already has. But we also need them to bang out blades of other styles, to rediscover our own lost "functional heritages." Every time I pick up an HI longer than about 20", I go "this is what a short sword should feel like, though it might be a little heavy."

They've still got something that richer nations lost a long time ago. They've got a lot of things that fall into that category, really. And a tiny little fraction of that gets pounded into the steel with each hammer blow, and can hopefully enrich other people and other nations, every time the blade leaves the scabbard.

Or something like that. Maybe I should go write a poem.