Recommendation? Hidden Tang Max Width | Wood Wall Thickness

J. Keeton

J. Keeton

Joined
Nov 15, 2005
Messages
1,209
Hey guys, I'm a hidden tang rookie. Looking for some guidance.

I'm working on this knife (very "rough" ground right now....:confused::D). I'm looking for a rule of thumb, recommendation, suggestion, or standard on the minimal allowable "wall thickness" for the wooden handle on a hidden tang. (Notated with a Red Arrow)

I've searched the wonderful blade forums google search feature for about about hour now and I must not have been able to think of the appropriate wording to search. I know I've read some rule of thumbs on this in the past, but alas I can't find them.



Just want to make sure I'm not making a weak handle here!

Thanks for any help!
JK

Edit/Note: It doesn't look like it in the picture, but my shoulders do have a slight radius where they meet the tang. This is the state of the blade pre-HT. I plan to surface grind the flats post HT, then taper the tang (both sides and top and bottom) before fitting the guard. Blade is 1084, shooting for a SS guard, with a SS 1/8'' pin. I plan to pre-drill the tang pre HT to accept a peened in 1/4'' brass "target" to accept my 1/8'' drill bit when drilling though the wood and tang. That's the plan anyway!
 
I do hidden tangs on almost all my knives however they are kitchen knives so they're probably not being put to as much hard as a hunting knife. I try to keep it no less that 5mm
 
J. Keeton said:
Hey guys, I'm a hidden tang rookie. Looking for some guidance.

I'm working on this knife (very "rough" ground right now....:confused::D). I'm looking for a rule of thumb, recommendation, suggestion, or standard on the minimal allowable "wall thickness" for the wooden handle on a hidden tang. (Notated with a Red Arrow)

I've searched the wonderful blade forums google search feature for about about hour now and I must not have been able to think of the appropriate wording to search. I know I've read some rule of thumbs on this in the past, but alas I can't find them.



Just want to make sure I'm not making a weak handle here!

Thanks for any help!
JK

Edit/Note: It doesn't look like it in the picture, but my shoulders do have a slight radius where they meet the tang. This is the state of the blade pre-HT. I plan to surface grind the flats post HT, then taper the tang (both sides and top and bottom) before fitting the guard. Blade is 1084, shooting for a SS guard, with a SS 1/8'' pin. I plan to pre-drill the tang pre HT to accept a peened in 1/4'' brass "target" to accept my 1/8'' drill bit when drilling though the wood and tang. That's the plan anyway!
Click to expand...
Taper that tang more and you will get more meat in wood .I can t find any reason why tang should be that wide beihnd pin ...........
aapPA5Q.jpg
 
On hunters or Bowies etc., I follow what I've seen Karl Andersen do, which is the keep the tang wide at the shoulders and where is goes through the guard, then make another slight step down (with radiused shoulders of course) just before it exits the back of the guard. This way the tang is plenty strong at its area which is most prone to failure (the blade to tang shoulders), yet also leaves you with plenty of handle material around the tang. It seems like I'm always referencing Karl's work here, but I have picked up a good bit of tips from his knives and vids over the years.

~Paul
My Youtube Channel
... (Some older vids of some of the older knives I made)
 
Willie71 said:
Once bedded with epoxy, the handle is pretty strong.
Click to expand...
Epoxy just hold things together add nothing in strength of glued parts . Just like in carbon..it is binder that holds fiber together ,strenght come from fibers ....
 
Natlek said:
Epoxy just hold things together add nothing in strength of glued parts . Just like in carbon..it is binder that holds fiber together ,strenght come from fibers ....
Click to expand...

Not exactly true, Natlek.
Structural epoxies like System Three T-88 and the West System resins are generally stronger than the wood they bond. A properly bedded tang with the right resin will be very strong.

However, the 5 minute epoxies are pretty weak compared to the slower setting resins.
 
Natlek said:
Epoxy just hold things together add nothing in strength of glued parts . Just like in carbon..it is binder that holds fiber together ,strenght come from fibers ....
Click to expand...

Why would fibres not be used in this type of construction?
 
I think the point there is that if you used a thin veneer of soft wood and you gave the knife a decent bang, you might end up with a blade in epoxy and bits of cracked wood.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Not exactly true, Natlek.
Structural epoxies like System Three T-88 and the West System resins are generally stronger than the wood they bond. A properly bedded tang with the right resin will be very strong.

However, the 5 minute epoxies are pretty weak compared to the slower setting resins.
Click to expand...
If we joint two wood scale and test them how much force is needed to break them and then repeat test with two other scale from simular wood glued together with epoxy what result we can except ?
 
Willie71 said:
Why would fibres not be used in this type of construction?
Click to expand...
No need for fibers in this construction ,Willie .We use here epoxy as glue and seal..IF opening for tang is much bigger then tang we can use epoxy as FILLER and that it s another story....cement vs concrete.
In this knife i used epoxy mixed with stainless shawings ...........
CArFXpD.jpg
 
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Natlek said:
If we joint two wood scale and test them how much force is needed to break them and then repeat test with two other scale from simular wood glued together with epoxy what result we can except ?
Click to expand...

Natlex, you are comparing two different things. I know you like stirring things up on this forum., but please stay on the subject we are discussing.

J. Keeton wants to do a hidden tang. He will make a hole and fill it with the tang and epoxy. A structural epoxy will probably be stronger than the wood. As long as the sides around the hole are sufficiently thick, the handle will be rock solid. As little as 1/8" thick walls would be fine.

J. Keeton,
You can do that by making the normal tang socket hole, but the below method is also good.
What I do on a handle like the one you propose is cut the block in half on a good table saw. I mark the center line and make the cut just to one side of it making two slabs with slightly different thickness. The thicker block is mortised so the tang recess will be a close fit and sit just below the surface. This allows a curved tang to fit perfect for insertion and removal freely. It also allows the hole for the pin to be placed exactly. Once the block is morticed, place the blade on the outside of the morticed block, line up the pin hole, and draw the outline so you know where the recess is. Check to make sure the tang is exactly matching the recess. This mark will work as a reference when cutting the block to shape.
One that is done, wax the tang on the blade heavily and glue the two blocks together with slow cure epoxy, using only moderate clamp pressure ( you don't want to squeeze out all the epoxy. The epoxy should go only on the wood surfaces being joined. As the mixing post starts to gel, pull out the tang, wipe it off and wax it again, and put it in and out several times, wiping off each time. Once it goes in and out freely with no epoxy drag-out, wax again and insert and let the block dry overnight. Once fully cured, remove the blade and shape the block as desired ... taking care so as not to grind into the tang recess!
BTW, I usually leave a little extra on the block at the guard end to be carefully sanded/files at final fit-up to make the guard a perfect fit.
This method works very well if making a take-down with a screw on pommel nut, but works just as well with a glue-in hidden tang. It will take very little epoxy to fill any voids during final glue up.
 
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Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:


J. Keeton wants to do a hidden tang. He will make a hole and fill it with the tang and epoxy. A structural epoxy will probably be stronger than the wood. As long as the sides around the hole are sufficiently thick, the handle will be rock solid. As little as 1/8" thick walls would be fine.
Click to expand...
I don t questioning J.Keeton design .
We are on the same page Stacy .Only what I say is that i will not bet on epoxy that will make handle stronger ...Good design of tang , tight tang hole and that is that ....
 
I’ve had to remove a hidden tang ironwood handle that was held with Acraglas and a pin. The wood was completely smashed to pieces yet the epoxy was still bonded to the smashed wood and surrounded the entire tang in the shape of my broached hole. I gotta say I truly believe a good epoxy will most certainly make a handle stronger. The proof is in the pudding.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:

Natlex, you are comparing two different things. I know you like stirring things up on this forum., but please stay on the subject we are discussing.

J. Keeton wants to do a hidden tang. He will make a hole and fill it with the tang and epoxy. A structural epoxy will probably be stronger than the wood. As long as the sides around the hole are sufficiently thick, the handle will be rock solid. As little as 1/8" thick walls would be fine.

J. Keeton,
You can do that by making the normal tang socket hole, but the below method is also good.
What I do on a handle like the one you propose is cut the block in half on a good table saw. I mark the center line and make the cut just to one side of it making two slabs with slightly different thickness. The thicker block is mortised so the tang recess will be a close fit and sit just below the surface. This allows a curved tang to fit perfect for insertion and removal freely. It also allows the hole for the pin to be placed exactly. Once the block is morticed, place the blade on the outside of the morticed block, line up the pin hole, and draw the outline so you know where the recess is. Check to make sure the tang is exactly matching the recess. This mark will work as a reference when cutting the block to shape.
One that is done, wax the tang on the blade heavily and glue the two blocks together with slow cure epoxy, using only moderate clamp pressure ( you don't want to squeeze out all the epoxy. The epoxy should go only on the wood surfaces being joined. As the mixing post starts to gel, pull out the tang, wipe it off and wax it again, and put it in and out several times, wiping off each time. Once it goes in and out freely with no epoxy drag-out, wax again and insert and let the block dry overnight. Once fully cured, remove the blade and shape the block as desired ... taking care so as not to grind into the tang recess!
BTW, I usually leave a little extra on the block at the guard end to be carefully sanded/files at final fit-up to make the guard a perfect fit.
This method works very well if making a take-down with a screw on pommel nut, but works just as well with a glue-in hidden tang. It will take very little epoxy to fill any voids during final glue up.
Click to expand...
Have you ever had any problems with the seam showing with this design?
 
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