Recommendation? Hidden Tang Max Width | Wood Wall Thickness

[Hengelo_77]

it will show but you can make it a feature by having a contrasting liner between the scales.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Sometimes it shows a tiny bit, but done well it is virtually invisible. I have done saya that looked like one solid piece of wood. Darker wood hides the seam better, curly maple shows it the worst. One trick is to make several shallow cuts with a hack saw across the sides and ends to align the pieces exactly when gluing back together. This aligns the grain and keeps the pattern from showing the disruption.

Another really easy way to do a hidden tang is to make a three piece assembly. Cut the block in half and cut a slice of a contrasting wood that is just a tad thicker than the tang. Mark the tang on the thin piece and saw it out so the piece fits the tang. Glue up the three pieces of wood and you have a fast and perfect tang hole. You can do this with the thin piece cut from the same block of wood, too. If you keep the pieces aligned and oriented the same when gluing up the two lines are pretty near invisible.
Obviously you want to use a resin or glue that dries clear or dye the resin to match the wood.

 

[Natlek]

Sometimes it shows a tiny bit, but done well it is virtually invisible. I have done saya that looked like one solid piece of wood. Darker wood hides the seam better, curly maple shows it the worst. One trick is to make several shallow cuts with a hack saw across the sides and ends to align the pieces exactly when gluing back together. This aligns the grain and keeps the pattern from showing the disruption.

Another really easy way to do a hidden tang is to make a three piece assembly. Cut the block in half and cut a slice of a contrasting wood that is just a tad thicker than the tang. Mark the tang on the thin piece and saw it out so the piece fits the tang. Glue up the three pieces of wood and you have a fast and perfect tang hole. You can do this with the thin piece cut from the same block of wood, too. If you keep the pieces aligned and oriented the same when gluing up the two lines are pretty near invisible.
Obviously you want to use a resin or glue that dries clear or dye the resin to match the wood.

something like this.............

 

[Cushing H.]

What I do on a handle like the one you propose is cut the block in half on a good table saw. I mark the center line and make the cut just to one side of it making two slabs with slightly different thickness. The thicker block is mortised so the tang recess will be a close fit and sit just below the surface.

Stacy ... I am probably being thick ... but I am just not quite visualizing this. When you say mortised .. are you referring to routing out a hollow for the tang to go into? (But then why locate the tank on the outside of the block in the next step?). I am stuck with thinking of a mortise and tenon joint ... which just does not make sense in this case. Are you able to clarify with words or pictures somehow?

 

[TheEdge01]

something like this.............

I really like this idea, thanks for sharing

 

[Willie71]

Sometimes it shows a tiny bit, but done well it is virtually invisible. I have done saya that looked like one solid piece of wood. Darker wood hides the seam better, curly maple shows it the worst. One trick is to make several shallow cuts with a hack saw across the sides and ends to align the pieces exactly when gluing back together. This aligns the grain and keeps the pattern from showing the disruption.

Another really easy way to do a hidden tang is to make a three piece assembly. Cut the block in half and cut a slice of a contrasting wood that is just a tad thicker than the tang. Mark the tang on the thin piece and saw it out so the piece fits the tang. Glue up the three pieces of wood and you have a fast and perfect tang hole. You can do this with the thin piece cut from the same block of wood, too. If you keep the pieces aligned and oriented the same when gluing up the two lines are pretty near invisible.
Obviously you want to use a resin or glue that dries clear or dye the resin to match the wood.

I do the three piece handle on hunters with g-10 and micarta handles. They turn out great, and have that racing stripe look. And I get to avoid broaching g-10 or micarta, which is never fun.

 

[J. Keeton]

Well thanks for the help guys. This is how it turned out.... Got a lot to learn, but I'm happy with this first attempt. 100% open to any tips!

 

[Mobius1]

I definitely never use 5 minute epoxy on hidden tang knives. If you look at the bond strength of epoxies, you will see that the longer setting ones are stronger.

Personally, I don't like making my hidden tangs TOO wide, because I've had issues with wood cracking while working on it. I also always pin or peen, because I've had handles fail without (same reason you want to pin scales.). I don't think it's because the epoxy doesn't have a good bond, but that epoxy is inflexible and thus gives way after months or years of impact/flex/ and or vibration. But as long as you have a pin or peen it doesn't allow for it to move, and thus lasts forever.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I was just thinking of some hidden tang miniatures I have done where the wall thickness is .01" to .02" thick.

 

[Natlek]

Well thanks for the help guys. This is how it turned out.... Got a lot to learn, but I'm happy with this first attempt. 100% open to any tips!

Everything perfect done , except that fat and round handle .......... Gard is to wide ,wood to much round ....You can grind sides of gard and wood and easy fix that .Also i don t like that huge brass insert , you almost cut in half tang .I make template from some stiff paper and never miss hole ....I use 3mm pins in 4mm hole in tang .If you use say 3mm pins brass insert 5mm ...maybe .BUT why that big one ??
I finished this one some day ago................That micarta gard is 17mm wide measured on stainless spacer ...the thickest part of the handle in middle is 21mm ...width where finger choil is are 25mm . I think that this mesaurement are golden rule for average hand.

shape of gard viewed from the side of the blad.....bad picture ,sorry

 

[J. Keeton]

I definitely never use 5 minute epoxy on hidden tang knives. If you look at the bond strength of epoxies, you will see that the longer setting ones are stronger.

Personally, I don't like making my hidden tangs TOO wide, because I've had issues with wood cracking while working on it. I also always pin or peen, because I've had handles fail without (same reason you want to pin scales.). I don't think it's because the epoxy doesn't have a good bond, but that epoxy is inflexible and thus gives way after months or years of impact/flex/ and or vibration. But as long as you have a pin or peen it doesn't allow for it to move, and thus lasts forever.

Thank you for your comments, sir! I used Combat Abrasives Rouge Epoxy on this knife.

Everything perfect done , except that fat and round handle .......... Gard is to wide ,wood to much round ....You can grind sides of gard and wood and easy fix that .Also i don t like that huge brass insert , you almost cut in half tang .I make template from some stiff paper and never miss hole ....I use 3mm pins in 4mm hole in tang .If you use say 3mm pins brass insert 5mm ...maybe .BUT why that big one ??
I finished this one some day ago................That micarta gard is 17mm wide measured on stainless spacer ...the thickest part of the handle in middle is 21mm ..

Thanks man. I agree my handle is too fat and guard is too wide for sure. Lots to learn! I used the 1/4 insert because that is what I had around in the shop, but I can see the negatives of having it too big for tang strength.

 

[Natlek]

Not exactly true, Natlek.
Structural epoxies like System Three T-88 and the West System resins are generally stronger than the wood they bond. A properly bedded tang with the right resin will be very strong.

However, the 5 minute epoxies are pretty weak compared to the slower setting resins.

IF epoxy is stronger then any wood why we don t drill say 1/2 inch hole in wood , fill it with tons of epoxy , insert/centered tang inside and we are DONE ?????????? WHY we spend hours to make that hole in wood to be very close to dimension/shape of tang?

 

[Natlek]

I’ve had to remove a hidden tang ironwood handle that was held with Acraglas and a pin. The wood was completely smashed to pieces yet the epoxy was still bonded to the smashed wood and surrounded the entire tang in the shape of my broached hole. I gotta say I truly believe a good epoxy will most certainly make a handle stronger. The proof is in the pudding.

Yes , the proof is in the pudding ...............BUT you proof nothing with what you done on that knife ...maybe only that you make some mistake so you must to remove that handle !
Glue scale to full tang knife , don t use pins . I'll take them out in five seconds intact so you can use them again...with pins this time !
Or you can try this.................shape two scale in form of handle for one of your hiden tang knife blank , glue them on that tang and see how strong they will be !

 

[NickBoyle]

N Natlek I’m not sure what you’re talking about or mean for that matter. You most certainly could drill a big ass hole and fill it with epoxy, insert your tang and call it done. 99.9% of the time the wood or handle material will give away before the epoxy. A tight fitting tang just gives ya even more support. All I’m sayin is a good epoxy, PROPERLY mixed, will make an almost bombproof handle. You’re not getting off a set of properly fit handle scales in any amount of seconds or minutes for that matter and still be able to reuse them. Not one of mine anyway‍

 

[Natlek]

N Natlek I’m not sure what you’re talking about or mean for that matter. You most certainly could drill a big ass hole and fill it with epoxy, insert your tang and call it done. 99.9% of the time the wood or handle material will give away before the epoxy. A tight fitting tang just gives ya even more support. All I’m sayin is a good epoxy, PROPERLY mixed, will make an almost bombproof handle. You’re not getting off a set of properly fit handle scales in any amount of seconds or minutes for that matter and still be able to reuse them. Not one of mine anyway‍

What I m talking about is this .....This handle is for knife I work on now and is ready for instaling . Opening for tang is very very tight fit .....If I use epoxy only in gard area to seal handle THAT handle would be strong/solid just like if i use epoxy inside the hole !
Strongest part in handle assembly is tang and we build handle around tang , not other way ..............
Yes I will get glued scale off /undamaged/without pins of course ,from any knife makers not just from yours...............easy !

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Not sure what is eating at Natlek today. Obviously, he is mistaken about drilling an oversize hold and filling it with structural epoxy and inserting the tang. This would require a hammer and a torch to get apart. Putting some grooves or notches along the tang makes it even stronger.

 

[weo]

why we don t drill say 1/2 inch hole in wood . . .WHY we spend hours to make that hole in wood to be very close to dimension/shape of tang?

The main reason why I try to keep the tang hole as small as possible is to avoid any chance of grinding into the hole and exposing said epoxy when shaping/finishing the handle. If I were to ever do a take-down style handle, where there's a bolster and end-cap, I'd drill a larger hole and let it fill with epoxy.

 

[Cushing H.]

Cute dog