Hidden tang question.

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Apr 27, 2009
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I doing my first hidden tang . I'm using 1/8" stock and did not have a long 1/8" bit . I made the slot with 1/8" and then used a long 3/16" bit to get the depth and then used a a ground down sawsall blade to open it up and burned the last bit of it in. I have some slop now. I tried filling the hole with epoxy and then used furniture wax on all the mating surfaces. Since it was right before going to bed I lost my nerve and pulled it apart after just a few minutes. It looked like the epoxy had wet the tang completely. Can I just do the epoxy at the end or do I really a tight fit for sculpting my handle?
 
I'm willing to bet most people don't glass bed their handles, and many don't use alignment pins between the guard, spacers and handles; more yet don't scrape out the mortise to a Wheeler level of precision.

So no, you don't have to. I personally have been bedding every hidden tang I've done recently solely because it makes my life easier. I can quickly drill and broach, oversize but close, then bed and have an assembly that goes together the same way every time.

If you have a loose fitting mortise you can fill it with epoxy at the end and be fine but you're almost forced to shape the handle after final glue up.

Glass bedding, alignment pins, allow you to completely finish every component before you permanently glue.
 
First, go to Home Depot and get a long shank 1/8" bit. It will be a black oxide wood drill bit. You can cut the shank down to eliminate excess length if you want. It is helpful to have a pair of digital calipers as well.

To answer your question, yes. You can do the epoxy at the end. But you will have to make sure your handle is straight as you are trying to fit everything up, get the handle pin in and clean up all the excess epoxy squeezing out as you assemble everything. By bedding the tang early, you can remove and reassemble the handle as many times as you need with great consistency. You can do most of your handle shaping before glue up this way and know that when the time comes to epoxy everything that it will all go together as expected.

Here is an excerpt from a post I made a while back in another thread about fitting hidden tangs:

Place your block of handle material with what will be the side of the handle facing up. Lay your blade on top, positioned how it will be when the knife is done. Keep in mind any guard or spacer material that will be between the handle and the ricasso and space accordingly. Now trace the tang profile onto the handle block. You can use pencil, masking tape or whatever. Make sure you have enough room around the tang profile to execute the handle dimensions you have designed for the knife. It doesn't hurt to transfer your handle shape to the block as well. But for now we are mainly concerned with the tang. Indicate where the guard or spacers meet the handle block and draw that angle with a straight line. Make sure that the face of the handle block that will meet the guard or spacers is sanded FLAT, not necessarily perpendicular to the top and bottom edges, just that the surface is flat.

Now, turn the block up with the guard side up. Use your calipers (set to decimal inches) to measure the width of the block, divide by two and scribe a centerline. I don't know the dimensions of your block but we'll use 2" square for our examples. Next, set your calipers to the width of your block and subtract .120" and divide by two. Using our 2" square as our example, we get .94". Set your calipers to that number and scribe a parallel line to the centerline from each side, left and right, to establish the width of the tang. Use a small machinist's square or similar to transfer the front of your tang drawing across the face of your handle block. So you have the top and bottom of the tang established as well. You should now have the entire cross section of your tang drawn out on the face of the handle block. If you will be using an 1/8" twist drill to drill the holes, make a small mark 1/16" in from the top and bottom of the scribed tang slot. This will be the center of the drill dimension. Center punch these markings on the centerline. Add additional punch marks if you will be drilling more holes. Do NOT put additional holes too close together because the drill will wander into an adjacent hole and at the very least frustrate you, it might also break a bit that thin in the hole. Now you're really having fun.

Ok, now that the hole locations are punched you are ready to go to the drill press. I would suggest getting the shortest 1/8" drill bit you have and chucking it up as far into the chuck as it will go. I know it's not good to clamp down on the flutes but have an 1/8" bit set aside for this task. If you use one of those extra long bits it will flex while drilling and your holes will wander all over the map resulting in crooked handles. Especially if you have a wood block with hard and soft grain structures, the bit will want to avoid the hard grain and scoot over to the soft grain (path of least resistance, etc.). You want as stiff a bit as you can get to make the pilot holes. That's why you want as much bit tucked up into the chuck (within reason) as you can, to stiffen the bit. Lightly clamp your handle block in the machinist's vise. Chuck up a longer drill bit or straight piece of rod for this part. Start with one of the holes at either end of the tang slot. Position the vise with the handle block behind the bit so you can see the tang profile you marked on the side of the block. Loosen the block in the vise so it barely holds the piece. Adjust the angle of the block so that the drill or rod is parallel to one of the tang lines. Tighten the vise. Insert your short bit, align with punch mark on top for that side of the tang and drill the pilot hole. Adjust angle for the other edge and drill pilot hole. Drill additional center holes at appropriate angles for their position. Once the pilot holes are drilled, go back and deepen the holes with your longer bits. They should follow the pilot holes without problems. Use a long rod to test the depth of the holes to make sure you are deep enough and that you haven't overshot your depth, and to confirm that your holes are straight.

Next you need to hog out the hole. Start by using a sharp chisel to outline and clean up the face of the hole. Hogging out a hole that narrow will be a pain because you are limited in the kinds of tools you can get to fit in the hole. Make yourself a custom broach for these narrow slots. Sawzall blades and drywall saws can work well. Small chainsaw files might barely fit but I doubt it. In any case, you have to get all that webbing out. Keep digging and test fitting the tang until it fits. Keep checking that the blade is straight to the handle block as you go. It helps to work with a block with generous dimensions so you can compensate for slightly crooked blocks.

Once the tang is seated to the proper depth you will fit up your spacers and guard to the ricasso. Drop the assembly into your handle block and tune the fit to the handle block by adjusting the angle of the block face until all light gaps are closed up. Make every effort to keep mating surfaces FLAT.

When the fit is perfect and without gaps, take the blade/handle assembly and lay the knife on its side with the ricasso propped up on a flat and level block like a 1-2-3 block or piece of micarta etc. with the blade and handle suspended in air. You want to have the ricasso and blade edge level and parallel to your table top/surface plate. Using a pencil on top of a block of wood that puts the pencil lead even with the cutting edge, establish a line around the handle block. This line should be in line with the cutting edge, not necessarily in line with the center of the handle block. Now when you start shaping your handle you will have a centerline from which to work. As you work, shaping the handle, use a contour gauge to compare one side of the handle to the other.
 
I drill a 1/4 or 3/16 hole when using my John Perry 3/16 or 1/8 broach because you need the bigger hole to fit the broach initially.
 
This is what I use for bedding. It's solid. Less mess and doesn't drain out pin holes or through tang holes because it's the consistency of play doh. It gets wicked hard, and doesn't flow into every little grinding mark making release easier.

th.jpg
 
I'm willing to bet most people don't glass bed their handles, and many don't use alignment pins between the guard, spacers and handles; more yet don't scrape out the mortise to a Wheeler level of precision.

So no, you don't have to. I personally have been bedding every hidden tang I've done recently solely because it makes my life easier. I can quickly drill and broach, oversize but close, then bed and have an assembly that goes together the same way every time.

If you have a loose fitting mortise you can fill it with epoxy at the end and be fine but you're almost forced to shape the handle after final glue up.

Glass bedding, alignment pins, allow you to completely finish every component before you permanently glue.

I have Pops 15 minutes, West Flex, and JB weld for epoxy . I was using the West last night. I feel like maybe the 15 minute epoxy would be more likely to release if I use it to bed the tang but then I worry about having my main epoxy bond be the 15 minute epoxy .
Ce5QVio.jpg
jEZK1bL.jpg

I also did a 10 Deg miter on the block. Now I am wondering if that was to much.
 
This is what I use for bedding. It's solid. Less mess and doesn't drain out pin holes or through tang holes because it's the consistency of play doh. It gets wicked hard, and doesn't flow into every little grinding mark making release easier.

View attachment 865672
You gave me the info before I could finish writing the question. Lol. I will have to pick some up.
I just remembered that I had beeswax and I melted it all over the tang and guard and used the 15 min stuff. I will know if it worked soon. Hopefully I'm not singing the S.O.B song
 
I've always wondering how big a difference it makes in what is used to bed the tang and then what is used to permanently epoxy the tang into the handle.

I wonder if using the same type of epoxy for both would ensure a more secure bond, for example, epoxying G-flex to the already cured G-flex in the handle.

Or does it really matter, and can ya simply mix or match pretty much anything and have it work just fine..?

kuraki kuraki Where do you get that Apoxie Sculpt from, and does it seem to hold up well (may seem like a dumb question since you just recommended it, but I'm just wondering lol)

I can't find it now but I recently was reading a thread on another forum where a maker recommended some type of epoxy/puddy that they have available at the usual hardware store like HD and Lowes etc. Trying to remember what it was..

~Paul
My Youtube Channel

... (It's been a few years since my last upload)
 
C coldsteelburns I got mine on Amazon. I'm not sure how it bonds with other epoxy but I would assume well based on its surface finish and hardness and how well it bonds to wood and steel itself and it's paintable.

I was using it for other projects before I was making knives since it's moldable like clay it's incredibly useful stuff. My wife used to have a nighthawk 700 and the threaded port on the throttle box linkage cracked and wouldn't hold the throttle cable sleeve. I basically speckled it with this stuff, painted it black and worked like new. Or I made a mount for a miniature video camera on my progressive reloading press, to look inside case mouths for a powder charge. When the cheap camera crapped out i could hardly chisel the stuff off the press.

I assume it's similar to the stuff you'll see at automotive parts stores in a roll for patching gas tank leaks or whatever, but slower curing .

I don't really worry how it bonds with a hidden tang though. The fit is tight and the pin or tang nut is mechanically joining them. The little bit of epoxy I'm putting in after bedding, during final assembly is really just to seal things up.
 
So do yall prefer to do glue up last? Instead of glue up then shape and sand the handle?

Sorry not trying to de rail thread
 
I have read that some people "double slick" the tang using teflon tape and then something like Vaseline or wax. I have some boat builders mold release compound, but I have yet to use it.
 
Well, one nice thing about the Apoxy or any product of that consistency is that you can pull the blade out before it's cured. I generally pull mine after an hour. It's still moldable, you want to pull the blade straight out and not deform things too much, but it comes free much easier than waiting for it to cure all the way, and seems to hold it's shape just fine.
 
7AQs1Vm.jpg

Well the olive wood wasn't ideal for this. I have been buffing with scotch brite and white compound and it's just drove all the gunk in. I guess it's hammer time. I thinned it out to much chasing gunk. It seemed like they epoxy just kept moving. Wish I used the Blackwood like I planned.

Any suggestions for improving the lines?
 
"Any suggestions for improving the lines?"

Smooth out that hump on the back of the handle. Also grind/sand down the top of the guard and blend it in with the handle, like this:

58h7sAE.jpg



Regarding the handle gunk, sometimes you can get away with sanding to 400X then hitting it with a Scotchbrite belt depending upon the handle material. Sometimes you just have to put in the hand work, sanding up through the grits and oiling the handle. You will learn which materials require which approach with time and experience.
 
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"Any suggestions for improving the lines?"

Smooth out that hump on the back of the handle. Also grind/sand down the top of the guard and blend it in with the handle, like this:

58h7sAE.jpg



Regarding the handle gunk, sometimes you can get away with sanding to 400X then hitting it with a Scotchbrite belt depending upon the handle material. Sometimes you just have to put in the hand work, sanding up through the grits and oiling the handle. You will learn which materials require which approach with time and experience.
Thanks Marc. I was up way to late and just kept chasing it. I tried both items you mentioned but I was really to far along when I switched to hand sanding. It's my first time working with olive.

As for the hump I'm going to try not adding that hollow. With more material on the top part of that handle im hoping the next one will look better. Or I just have another shop knife and start fresh. This one was recycled from a drop point I didn't like.
 
I’ve bedded plenty of rifle actions to stocks over the years, but never really thought about doing it to hidden tang knives. It makes sense though. Does anyone use Acraglass for this procedure? If so, or with other bedding compounds(aside from the one kukri mentioned), do you use any release agent on the tang to make it removable after the bedding solidifies? Or do you just remove the tang/knife prior to it setting up? This idea seems like it would be a LOT easier than spending forever getting the handle hogged out precisely.


I know Acraglass takes precise measurements, but it’s not that difficult if you have a scale. Here’s a tip for precisely measuring multi-part epoxies or adhesives. I just put a small Dixie cup on the scale, hit the tare button to zero it out, put the first part in, double the weight on a calculator, and put the second part in until it matches the number on the calculator. Not really pertinent to this thread, but it’s an easy little method of measuring multipart epoxies. I use a little digital Frankfort Arsenal scale made for reloading powder. You could use one of those cheap digital powder scales sold at smoke shops/ghetto convenient stores for drugs.
 
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