High carbon kitchen knives, let's see them!

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Jan 22, 2013
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I have nothing but stainless in my kitchen knife block. I'm interested in getting a kitchen knife in 1095 or 01. I'm curious as to how they age and perform against a good stainless steel like CPM154 or S30V.

So please help me by posting a pic of yours, along with what you like and dislike about carbon in the kitchen. If you work with both stainless and carbon blades in the kitchen, how do they compare in the short and long term?

Thanks guys.
 
Have you considered sanmai knives, with carbon core and stainless clad?
Best of both worlds ;)

Carbon is often harder and takes a sharper edge. Holds the edge longer than stainless, however the insane sharpness will not hold that long.
I have experience with white steel and blue steel, as well as 52100. Last one is my favorite. Easy to sharpen.
Carbon knives forms patina, and for someone might that be unattractive. Some carbon is also very reactive and can stain food before patina develops.
Carbon knives needs much more care and love than stainless.

I prefer sanmai.
If you want to start in the cheap end of sanmai, Hiromoto makes some really nice knives. If you wanna go bananas, order from Bill Burke :)
http://www.bladegallery.com/shopexd.asp?id=89777

Woot! :)
 
Have you considered sanmai knives, with carbon core and stainless clad?
Best of both worlds ;)

Carbon is often harder and takes a sharper edge. Holds the edge longer than stainless, however the insane sharpness will not hold that long.
I have experience with white steel and blue steel, as well as 52100. Last one is my favorite. Easy to sharpen.
Carbon knives forms patina, and for someone might that be unattractive. Some carbon is also very reactive and can stain food before patina develops.
Carbon knives needs much more care and love than stainless.

I prefer sanmai.
If you want to start in the cheap end of sanmai, Hiromoto makes some really nice knives. If you wanna go bananas, order from Bill Burke :)
http://www.bladegallery.com/shopexd.asp?id=89777

Woot! :)

Thanks for chiming in. I never really considered Sanmai and carbon. Those look pretty cool. I don't mind the blade forming a patina. Patina can look really cool sometimes. It can almost look like Damascus.

I saw one of the many traveling cook shows, I think it was No Reservations. The host was in a restaurant in South America somewhere. The exec' chef of the restaurant was carving a beautifully roasted slab of meat with a blade that had what looked like a super old almost black patina on it. You could tell it was patina because of the imperfect way it formed on the knife leaving some spots darker than others. Anyway, It was really an impressive piece of cutlery with a lot of character. So now I'm on a mission to get one for my kitchen.
 
my kitchen knives are nearly all carbon, having used both, I stuck with carbon because it's obviously sharper, and to me the character of the knife is added with patina.

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Sold this a month ago (misono swedish carbon)
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Have more but cannot find pics..
 
Well, its a matter of taste :)
You can get stainless with lots of character as well ;)

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And stainless damscus will still look stunning after lots of use as they don't form patina that covers the damscus :)
But I hear a lot of makers talks about soul in carbon. However if you live in a humid area, stainless might be better than carbon. But I agree, Carbon is fantastic.
 
I'm pretty sold on carbon steel after switching to 52100. If your environment allows for it and you're willing to take care of it, then I'd go for carbon.
That said, there are certain knives that I prefer in stainless. When you use carbon steel, you have to rinse and dry it before you put it down again. For knives where the rinsing and drying takes longer than I usually spend using the knife then I prefer stainless. For example, if I'm having a party and I just need to slice a lime in half to make a drink, stainless is the way to go. I like my paring and utility knives in stainless and everything else in carbon.

- Chris
 
And since you asked for pictures, here are some of my favorites (all 52100 except for the deba, which is 1084):

I made this set for my girlfriend (sujihiki, gyuto, petty, deba)
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6" Funayuki
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7" Sujihiki
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6" Honesuki
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9" Gyuto
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This is my 240mm Konosuke Fujiyama in Aogami #2 (AKA Blue #2) steel lam (the steel with slightly lesser wear resistance than Aogami Super [AKA Super Blue]). Thus far, it is my favorite knife. The fit and finish is second-to-none, the grind is super even, the geometry is exceptional, the balance is fantastic, and the heat treatment was stellar. The Fujiyama is a bit thicker than their other series such as the HD. I also own a HD in White #2.

As you can see, the knife is heavily patina'd. I used mustard and plastic wrap to put the initial forced patina on it for protection, and then over time the natural patina developed. I like the look, and it gives this otherwise very reactive steel great rust protection. Like on many reactive steels, the patina is always changing.

Kono also makes knives in semi stainless steel, stainless steel, White #1, White #2, and a few limited models in various other exotic steels like ZDP-189. There are a few reasons I wanted Blue #2: the specific blacksmith who makes the Fuji line is very well-known and I wanted his work due to his reputation for excellence. As Blue #2 is in the middle of White #2 and Super Blue, it holds an edge slightly longer than White #2, but like White #2 is very easy to sharpen (IMO much easier than Super Blue). I like this fast and easy touchup greatly given this is a knife I use daily and so time saved on sharpening adds up FAST! Toughness-wise, Blue #2 has very good toughness for this kind of knife and the usage it sees. Finally, like White #2, Blue #2 takes a very aggressive edge and really does not care whether you finish at 600 or 30000. I generally stop sharpening somewhere between 1000 and 5000, but the knife cuts like a monster almost regardless of how high I take it. The knife can push cut all day long, and it can also slice like a box cutter. Getting it to a point of raving sharp is very easy to do as it requires little effort on my behalf, and it stays raving sharp for quite a while. While there are a few really high-end stainless steels that can hold an edge longer, I've never used one nearly as easy to sharpen to such an aggressive edge with such little work that has so little pickiness about how you get there. I think that is the primary reason White #2 and Blue #2 are considered some of the most desirable steels for these kinds of knives (because while they hold an edge well, they are more notable for being super easy to sharpen and taking a really aggressive edge with minimal effort).

As for reactivity, Blue #2 is like Super Blue and White #2. It's a super reactive steel, and it can start the patina in literally seconds to a few minutes from when you cut something acidic if you do not wipe the knife off immediately after usage. As that is not always practical to me, the patina worked out well. Now that the knife has the patina, it's great at resisting corrosion.

As a user, usage of super reactive steels generally requires different action. Mainly, it is important to rinse and especially dry a knife shortly-to-immediately after usage. For me that is easy because I did this with stainless to avoid making one food taste like another or cross-contaminate. Obviously these steels in a dishwasher or drying naturally are really out of the question. I do not find keeping Blue or White steels without a patina practical (and I like the natural look as they add character.) So while you still want to wipe the blade with the patina, the patina allows you to not have to wipe down the blade every few cuts almost obsessively.

My personal advice is if you are thinking about trying a reactive steel that you should go for it. IMO White #2 and Blue #2 steels make cooking more enjoyable by greatly cutting down the time you need to maintain them, giving you more time to cook or eat.





 
While high carbide content stainless steels are great for folders and general purpose knives that are going to see abrasive materials, kitchen knives are going to encounter much different and softer materials. I've cut more vegetables and proteins than I have pretty much anything else. For these type of materials you want a thin, hard, and easy to sharpen edge--which is why carbon steels still dominate higher end kitchen cutlery. Their lack of corrosion resistance, though, can be off putting for some people.

I've gone from using stainless (VG-10) towards more carbon steels in the kitchen. The edges last longer, don't chip as much, and are stable even at very thin geometries.

Here are my most used knives:



I see lots of Konosuke love in this thread. The gyuto above is a funayuki profiled HD2.
 
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Wow, musk ox, mammoth tooth, and ss Damascus. You are my hero if you actually use that knife.

Well, its a matter of taste :)
You can get stainless with lots of character as well ;)

7132958749_48f2c72fe6_b.jpg


And stainless damscus will still look stunning after lots of use as they don't form patina that covers the damscus :)
But I hear a lot of makers talks about soul in carbon. However if you live in a humid area, stainless might be better than carbon. But I agree, Carbon is fantastic.
 
Have you considered sanmai knives, with carbon core and stainless clad?
Best of both worlds ;)

Carbon is often harder and takes a sharper edge. Holds the edge longer than stainless, however the insane sharpness will not hold that long.
I have experience with white steel and blue steel, as well as 52100. Last one is my favorite. Easy to sharpen.
Carbon knives forms patina, and for someone might that be unattractive. Some carbon is also very reactive and can stain food before patina develops.
Carbon knives needs much more care and love than stainless.

I prefer sanmai.
If you want to start in the cheap end of sanmai, Hiromoto makes some really nice knives. If you wanna go bananas, order from Bill Burke :)
http://www.bladegallery.com/shopexd.asp?id=89777

Woot! :)

I am afraid I will have to disagree on your assessment of carbon being harder and keep an edge longer than a s30v or 154 stainless. Although carbon is great it is a softer hence the reason it is much easier to sharpen.
 
I recently bought Wusthof's 200th anniversary set, and 8 inch chef's and a parer. The knives are purportedly made "the old way" and are of high carbon steel. I've used the chef's knife (pictured) maybe 6 times, on basic veggies and some proteins, and I've washed and dried it fairly quickly after each use. There's quite a patina already developing, although I can feel the dark spots on the blade when I'm drying the knife, or just running a fingertip over the discolored areas. As soon as I got the knives, before use, I rubbed then down with the supplied Barristol oil, and I really have tried to be careful, much more so than with any other knives I've owned, but the "patina" is happening alarmingly quickly. The worst damage (the darkest marks) seems to have been from cutting a tomato and then leaving the knife sitting for a couple minutes while I finished making a sandwich. If the patina was merely cosmetic I'd pay it no mind, but the fact that the discolored areas cause drag on the blade has me worried. Have I managed to spend $200 on knives so delicate that cutting a tomato might damage them?

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It's not damage. The patina is an oxide, and once it's over the whole blade, it protects the steel underneath. The first few uses see dramatic changes, then it slows down.
 
I am afraid I will have to disagree on your assessment of carbon being harder and keep an edge longer than a s30v or 154 stainless. Although carbon is great it is a softer hence the reason it is much easier to sharpen.

You will never get S30V or 154 as sharp as a carbon steel, and it is more brittle than the fine grained high end carbon steel. At super thin geometry, carbon will resist chipping better than any stainless. For most users this is moot as the pm stainless gets "sharp enough" for most users.
 
I recently bought Wusthof's 200th anniversary set, and 8 inch chef's and a parer. The knives are purportedly made "the old way" and are of high carbon steel. I've used the chef's knife (pictured) maybe 6 times, on basic veggies and some proteins, and I've washed and dried it fairly quickly after each use. There's quite a patina already developing, although I can feel the dark spots on the blade when I'm drying the knife, or just running a fingertip over the discolored areas. As soon as I got the knives, before use, I rubbed then down with the supplied Barristol oil, and I really have tried to be careful, much more so than with any other knives I've owned, but the "patina" is happening alarmingly quickly. The worst damage (the darkest marks) seems to have been from cutting a tomato and then leaving the knife sitting for a couple minutes while I finished making a sandwich. If the patina was merely cosmetic I'd pay it no mind, but the fact that the discolored areas cause drag on the blade has me worried. Have I managed to spend $200 on knives so delicate that cutting a tomato might damage them?

photo_zpsf796021c.jpg

As noted, that isn't damage but a normal process of carbon steel kitchen knives and it is how you protect the knife from severe corrosion/pitting. From a functional perspective, the patina gives great benefits. You are noticing more drag now because the stage that is in, which is extremely uneven. Stab a grapefruit with it (or multiple to cover the full size), leave it for a few hours, once it has a strong (almost black marble) patina remove, and scrub it good with hot water and dish soap using a lot of pressure. After washing, the blade should feel smooth. Over time, the patina will develop further, giving the knife more character, increasingly better rust resistance, and ultimately will settle with a very smooth/even patina.


As a general rule, the carbon steels used on higher end carbon knives, especially high-end Japanese gyutos, tend to be very reactive steels that are chosen for other features like how long they hold an edge and how easy they are to sharpen. My Konosuke Fuji is my most expensive gyuto knife at a little under $500. I like the look of it without the patina more, but ultimately I gave into the patina because frequently washing and drying the second after a cut just isn't practical for a knife I use twice a day or more, so for me the patina works. And ultimately, the benefit of this reactive steel that is used on my Kono is that it is a much better steel for that kind of knife than anything stainless, IMO.
 
Like High carbon knives they are the best way to go the edge retainabilty is awesome. They are very rugged and very strong. I have had a knife that is more that fifteen years it is really old is awesome
 
Here are a couple of my personal knives.

This one is O1. It was supposed to be a hunter, but I messed up the tang and decided lighter duty would be better. It works well as a utility knife. Its about a year old. I have always meant to finish the guard but never seem to get around to it. :grumpy:

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[/url]IMG_5818 by Wjkrywko, on Flickr[/IMG]

This one is my wife's knife. Its 15n20, which patinas beautifully with a dramatic rainbow of colors.

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[/url]IMG_5817 by Wjkrywko, on Flickr[/IMG]

This one is 52100, but its only a couple months old. It is slower to patina than the O1 and 15N20, but its coming along.

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[/url]IMG_5816 by Wjkrywko, on Flickr[/IMG]
 
As noted, that isn't damage but a normal process of carbon steel kitchen knives and it is how you protect the knife from severe corrosion/pitting. From a functional perspective, the patina gives great benefits. You are noticing more drag now because the stage that is in, which is extremely uneven. Stab a grapefruit with it (or multiple to cover the full size), leave it for a few hours, once it has a strong (almost black marble) patina remove, and scrub it good with hot water and dish soap using a lot of pressure. After washing, the blade should feel smooth. Over time, the patina will develop further, giving the knife more character, increasingly better rust resistance, and ultimately will settle with a very smooth/even patina.

Thanks for the reply. Part of the reason I bought these particular knives is because I wanted something that would patina over time, I was just alarmed at the unevenness of the initial stages. I'm all for a unique patina full of character, but if it causes the blade to stick while slicing it's a deal-breaker. I'm glad to hear the unevenness will go away. In fact, I've just sliced up a few oranges and let it sit, and after washing there is a cool rainbow effect happening if you hold the blade just right. Another reason I wanted to try a high-carbon blade is because of the damage SWMBO has wrought on the Shuns I bought a few years ago. I'm hoping a carbon blade that's less prone to chipping and easy to sharpen will last longer in our dual-user household.
 
Thanks for the reply. Part of the reason I bought these particular knives is because I wanted something that would patina over time, I was just alarmed at the unevenness of the initial stages. I'm all for a unique patina full of character, but if it causes the blade to stick while slicing it's a deal-breaker. I'm glad to hear the unevenness will go away. In fact, I've just sliced up a few oranges and let it sit, and after washing there is a cool rainbow effect happening if you hold the blade just right. Another reason I wanted to try a high-carbon blade is because of the damage SWMBO has wrought on the Shuns I bought a few years ago. I'm hoping a carbon blade that's less prone to chipping and easy to sharpen will last longer in our dual-user household.

Orange will probably make a neat patina. I generally use grapefruit because of how strong the contrast is and how the flesh of it leaves a neat pattern (plus it only takes 2 to cover a 9 inch knife). After you force a strong patina, scrubbing it really good with a paper towel, dish soap, and hot water, and then allowing it to slowly redevelop should make it smooth for you over time. This initial forced patina will give you more even coverage which is hard to do naturally given not all areas of the blade make contact with all the foods.

My experience with Shuns have been very negative also. I find them to be very chippy knives, and especially chippy given most of my VG-10 knives are quite tough. I think you will find with the Wusthof's that they are both tougher and easy to sharpen. As a general rule, Wusthof makes some really tough knives.



This is what the patina on my Blue #2 Kono Fuji looks like after being forced using grapefruit until the patina was almost black, scrubbed hard so that the patina was closer to a lighter grey, and then given a few months to naturally fill out to its current state of being a lighter color with some contrast. The edge portion is a little darker due to the laminate, but at this point the entire surface of the blade is really smooth and it does not get that resistance that can occur when a blade has only a partial patina.
 
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