High end chinese producers in the market

[bld522]

buying chinese made knives in a sense is also supporting the US economy, maybe?

I'd suggest you ask Ray Laconico, Matt Cucchiara, Todd Begg and the dealers who sell their production knives. From their standpoint, I doubt there's any "maybe" about it.

 

[GasMan1]

There's no doubt that establishing Stateside support will be costly. But to my way of thinking, it's the price Chinese manufacturers have to pay if they really want to join the big leagues. Nobody is going to be willing to fix their own knives or send them offshore for service indefinitely.

True that.^^^ and I don't send my knives in to be sharpened or anything like that but it's good to know if I have a problem with it I can send in to be repaired.

 

[AreBeeBee]

It's to be expected that Chinese knifemakers will follow the path that Japanese knifemakers did after 1945. First it was imitative, low-quality junk. Then their production moved up-market. No one shoild be surprised when the Chinese to do exactly the same.

 

[jazub]

It seems that there is a flood of Chinese produced knives catering to popular collector trends of the moment (specifically titanium framelocks). They offer little to no warranty -and in fact there was a thread recently where somebody received a knife with no screws in the handle; the solution was a multiple weeks wait for replacement screws from China and the buyer was somehow satisfied with this [because of all the inert titanium he now possessed?]

With the willingness to gobble up this kind of stuff and accept the rapidly increasing asking prices, a trend of less-for-more is perpetuating in the industry. The "trade off" of getting a slightly lower price for anodized titanium and [supposedly] X-steel seems shortsighted with regard to the longterm message purchasing such items delivers to the knife-producers: "anodize some titanium, put known name on it, jack up the price, and we'll buy it regardless of reliability/service/warranty."

It leaves a very bad taste in my mouth and I personally would not touch one of those knives.

 

[bld522]

More for me! :thumbup: Like I said, I perform a discount in my head for the fact that Chinese-manufactured knives don't come with great warranties, but I can't and won't reduce the value of their knives to zero when I can see with my own eyes how well-built they are. I mean think about it. Do you really believe the designers whose names I just mentioned would be willing to risk their reputations on companies who couldn't represent them properly?

 

[Zidfeldts]

More for me! :thumbup: Like I said, I perform a discount in my head for the fact that Chinese-manufactured knives don't come with great warranties, but I can't and won't reduce the value of their knives to zero when I can see with my own eyes how well-built they are. I mean think about it. Do you really believe the designers whose names I just mentioned would be willing to risk their reputations on companies who couldn't represent them properly?

They look like a gateway drug to me!

 

[bld522]

Yep. They produce a helluva high too! I've got a Laconico custom and I will tell you unequivocally that my Kizer Gemini is a worthy production piece. Now you can take that from me or you can choose to listen to someone who, by their own admission, would never touch one. I'll leave that decision up to you.

 

[The Aflac Duck]

With the willingness to gobble up this kind of stuff and accept the rapidly increasing asking prices, a trend of less-for-more is perpetuating in the industry.

This isn't limited to Chinese knives though. Look at the "tactical folder" market and it's easy to see less-for-more is becoming more prevalent.

Medford's Vulcan finish: aka a blade which was heat treated and given no effort to give it a finished look.

ZT, Spyderco, and many others "satin" finish: if finishing the blade on a belt sander is considered satin, then maybe coating the blades with a sharpie should be called DLC.

Many customs with ri-thick-ulous (term stolen from Marcinek) handle scales that are given a stonewashed or orange peel "finish": not only does this cover any flaws from manufacturing/machining, but it's a bare-minimum way to finish a knife... A child could learn how to orange peel/stonewash a handle.

These are all being practiced by American manufacturers too. People buy into these looks because they look "rugged" or "tactical", but it's really all about selling yourself short.

Even the new Reate Torrent looks unfinished to me. They left it with machining marks all over the handle, and I've heard people call these "traction grooves"! They aren't for "traction", they are for cutting corners!!!

Sorry... I needed to let all that out. The current folder market pisses me off to be honest, and a little part of my knife-enthusiasm dies a little bit when I see a heat-anodized ti handle with an unfinished blade sell for $1,000+. It makes me question what people expect for their money besides hype and marketing tricks...

 

[jazub]

I didn't intend to imply that these Chinese newbie companies are the only perpetrators, BB. I can feel your exact gripes in other manufacturers as well. Frustrating. But there are cheerleaders for everything.

 

[bld522]

And truth tellers as well . . .

 

[The Aflac Duck]

I didn't intend to imply that these Chinese newbie companies are the only perpetrators, BB. I can feel your exact gripes in other manufacturers as well. Frustrating. But there are cheerleaders for everything.

Yea, I kinda went off on a tangent there. For every minute I waste ranting about how stupid this is, there are 2 tacticool folders sold to a user that just wants to show them off on Instagram (cough, cough, Jim...cough Skelton, cough cough)

 

[salmonkiller]

I'd suggest you ask Ray Laconico, Matt Cucchiara, Todd Begg and the dealers who sell their production knives. From their standpoint, I doubt there's any "maybe" about it.

May bee they are looking to make some dough with minimal capital investment?Seems to me more and more custom makers/designers are launching their own production knives(Custom knife makers) without having to entirely outsource production.The final assembly and tuning of the knives are done in house......Mid Tech?

 

[The Aflac Duck]

May bee they are looking to make some dough with minimal capital investment?Seems to me more and more custom makers/designers are launching their own production knives(Custom knife makers) without having to entirely outsource production.The final assembly and tuning of the knives are done in house......Mid Tech?

The sad part, is that these mid-techs (that term makes me want to strangle a kitten) are often inflating in price to the point that they aren't selling for much less than the makers custom knives themselves.

 

[Vinifera]

Any product labeled as "made in Japan" was consider junk in the 1960s for those old enough to remember.

 

[bld522]

The sad part, is that these mid-techs (that term makes me want to strangle a kitten) are often inflating in price to the point that they aren't selling for much less than the makers custom knives themselves.

True that. Takes me back to the gentleman who coined the term:

Mid-Tech is a class of knives I created a few years ago to put a dividing line between custom and production .I wanted to discontinue my Boa knife a few years ago due to bordom but the demand was still so high I didn't dare . So I decided to get the parts cut out for me and I would do the grinding shaping and finnishing myself .Problem was , I didn't want everyone to assume I did all my knives this way. I needed to devise a way to differentiate between my custom and these knives I had subbed out part of .The answer was Mid-Tech ,by creating a new category of knives somewhere between custom and production and marketing as such these "Mid-Tech" knives would clearly establish a dividing line between custom and Mid-Tech or less than 100% authorship. Honesty is the key here . Since then there are those that have adopted the term Mid-Tech and defined it differently than I ,which I don't agree with . I installed a dividing line between custom and Mid-Tech but failed to mention that if a knife is all subbed out it is still a PRODUCTION KNIFE. There are alot of makers and posers that think that by assembling a knife they farmed out 90% ,sharpening it and logoing it it is Mid-Tech . It is not a Mid-Tech it is primarily factory made and there for is a Production knife . Now I don't know what % authorship a knife needs to have to be called a Mid-Tech , didn't think it necessary but things bieng as they are there are those that will split hairs and do as little as possable by hand and use the term Mid-Tech where the spirit of the term is lost . Again always ask how much was hand made by the guy or gal whose name appears on the knife . Honor and Honesty are key and as much as we don't like to hear it there are some sneaky ,treacherous ,predators out there who will deliberately mislead in order to turn a quick buck . Most are credible ,honest folk just trying to make a living . Don't let the 10% ruin the credibility of the 90%.

I'd say that sort of covers it.

 

[bld522]

May bee they are looking to make some dough with minimal capital investment?

I think it's that as well as a desire on their part to get their designs into the hands of a broader audience than they could ever hope to capture on their own.

 

[Cutting_Edge_DNA]

The four most important factors in manufacturing quality products.
1. Quality engineering
2. Quality materials
3. Quality tooling
4. Quality control

You really can't skimp on any of the above factors to have a truely outstanding product. This applies to any country of origin on the planet. Most Chinese made products have great engineering but average to low grade materials and poor tooling. Quality control is fair to average and thus you get a product that has good enough initial appeal but a limited life span.
China like any other country has to pay for quality tooling, materials and craftsmanship. This negatively affects China because people expect Chinese high end products to be much cheaper than say a German or US product. So as a result China has to lower its margins. So yeah a great Chinese product can be had but your not going to get it at bottom dollar pricing.

 

[craytab]

The four most important factors in manufacturing quality products.
1. Quality engineering
2. Quality materials
3. Quality tooling
4. Quality control

You really can't skimp on any of the above factors to have a truely outstanding product. This applies to any country of origin on the planet. Most Chinese made products have great engineering but average to low grade materials and poor tooling. Quality control is fair to average and thus you get a product that has good enough initial appeal but a limited life span.
China like any other country has to pay for quality tooling, materials and craftsmanship. This negatively affects China because people expect Chinese high end products to be much cheaper than say a German or US product. So as a result China has to lower its margins. So yeah a great Chinese product can be had but your not going to get it at bottom dollar pricing.

You are forgetting a main component. Customer service. No company or maker is going to have perfect anything. Especially factory made products. Problems will arise. The Chinese brands we are talking about don't have customer service anywhere near the level of their competitors here in the US. It has nothing to do with the fact they are Chinese companies. They can make they proper investment to compete in this aspect with US or other companies. The question is will the price after such an investment remain competitive.

 

[bld522]

The four most important factors in manufacturing quality products.
1. Quality engineering
2. Quality materials
3. Quality tooling
4. Quality control

You really can't skimp on any of the above factors to have a truely outstanding product. This applies to any country of origin on the planet. Most Chinese made products have great engineering but average to low grade materials and poor tooling. Quality control is fair to average and thus you get a product that has good enough initial appeal but a limited life span.
China like any other country has to pay for quality tooling, materials and craftsmanship. This negatively affects China because people expect Chinese high end products to be much cheaper than say a German or US product. So as a result China has to lower its margins. So yeah a great Chinese product can be had but your not going to get it at bottom dollar pricing.

Good points, and borne out by the fact that high-end Chinese knives currently cost as much or nearly as much as their US counterparts without the benefit of being backed up by service departments domiciled in the U.S. Without that, I suspect the hill Chinese manufacturers have to climb to gain acceptance in the U.S. will prove too steep and that most if not all of them will eventually fall by the wayside. But while they're here and while I can buy reasonably-priced well-made knives designed by some of my favorite makers, I am going to strike! If I'm never able to sell them, so be it. I mean Good Lord, the ability to buy a beautifully-crafted Laconico-designed production piece based on the Jasmin flipper for $170 is just too darn good to pass up, warranty notwithstanding. So I didn't.

PS: You beat me too it, craytab. But it appears we're on the same page.

 

[craytab]

PS: You beat me too it, craytab. But it appears we're on the same page.

It is mostly because we've been talking about this in another thread and again with the most recent Microtech horrible customer service thread. With MTs track record you will likely get you knife back sooner from China than MT, and it might actually be fixed.