High end knives and keeping up with new steels

[Kaizen1]

Over the years, I grown a taste for fewer but more expensive knives over a bunch of middle range ones. But what's strange is the middle range ($80-$200) knives seem to have the most adaptation to new technologies in the knife industry. You have manufacturers like Spyderco, Benchmade & Kershaw constantly coming out with the latest lock designs, opening methods and exotic steels. I'll leave general knife designs out of this and focus on the steels since new designs bring higher risk of the market not responding positively to them. And yes, introducing exotic steels can be risky as well, but with the amount of new steels hitting the market and being tested, some steels are being shown to have the characteristics that they were originally hyped about. Some examples of this seem to me to be:

ZDP-189
S90V
S110V
M4

Among others. Yes, they seem to be a little more difficult to sharpen, but they don't seem to be that difficult that the market is responding negatively to them. In general, by a large majority, reviews of these steels are positive. I realize there are some makers working with newer steels and I commend them for doing so. A few off the top of my head are:

Rick Hinderer (Duratech 20CV, CTS-XHP)
Yuna Knives (ZDP-189)
William Henry (ZDP-189/damascus = awesomeness)
Strider Knives (though their exotic steels are going for 3-4+ times the "regular" S30V ones) (NiTinol 60)
I believe Chris Reeve is working on bringing a new steel into production

This is not to say anything bad about makers and manufacturers who are working with more commonly used premium steels (154cm, S30V, etc). If it ain't broke, why fix it? But what appears to be happening (to me at least) is that the use of advanced materials by manufacturers like Spyderco is closing the value gaps between the medium ranged knives and higher-end production and custom ones. And more power to Spyderco:thumbup:.

This reminds me of the introduction of the Cree technology to the flashlight market. In a fairly short time frame, you had lights that were something like 3x cheaper than Surefires with more powerful beams. Sure we can talk about overall quality of the knives which, IMO, the mid-ranged knives are not necessarily progressing in on the high end knives and is what I think is really one of the major things keeping that value gap where it is.

Considering all of this, it appears to me that if high end production and custom makers want to keep their business in prime shape, they may want to consider working with newer steels, lest they end up being the guy who makes "high quality" knives with AUS-8. I can't imagine that the newer steels that are becoming more common in the mid-range knife manufacturers are going to be so expensive that it would destroy the business model. Even if they end up taking a hit in the short run, I believe it will be an investment for the better in the long run, if anything, to keep up with an advancing industry that their businesses are subject to.

Any thoughts?

 

[Kaizen1]

I'd like to add that Kershaw seems to be doing this with lower priced knives to the mid-range knife market:thumbup:

 

[moonwilson]

Steel quality is improving across the board. Even lower-end knives are starting to get into S30V and the Sandvik steels. This is a good thing. I can see S30V becoming the standard, "default, quality" steel, the way AUS-8 was a few years ago. Even Buck and Case are starting to come around. Heck, even Gerber sells a few models in S30V nowadays.

ATS-34, 154CM, VG10 and S30V are all good enough for me in a folder. A2 or 1095 work just fine for fixed blades. INFI is just gravy. Metallurgy has advanced to the level where one can argue whether the newest "supersteels" are even needed. 154CM holds its edge for ages, and sharpens up lickety split! You really don't need anything much better than that.

 

[Kaizen1]

Steel quality is improving across the board. Even lower-end knives are starting to get into S30V and the Sandvik steels. This is a good thing. I can see S30V becoming the standard, "default, quality" steel, the way AUS-8 was a few years ago. Even Buck and Case are starting to come around. Heck, even Gerber sells a few models in S30V nowadays.

Precisely. And I think that can pose a problem for high end makers and bringing in new customers who are weighing out the advantages of buying knives in the $300+ range. Material-wise we have S30V liner locks with G-10 scales that can be bought anywhere from $40-$400+. If I were new to the industry, I would be justified in asking why the hell I should pay 10x more for something that uses the same materials. This adds to the already existing issue that a $40 knife can do 90%+ that any other folder in any price range can do and practically 100% of any reasonable job required of a pocket knife.

 

[spiralarchitect]

How is keeping up with the latest trends in big money knife manufacturing going to help the high quality/low volume guy? Do you honestly think Strider or CRK or any of the others would let their choice of steel degrade to the point where folks hold it in a similar regard to AUS-8 at this point in time? The smaller producers of high quality knives adapt at a pace dictated by their business model. I am certain that when someone would rather have a ZDP Caly or an S110V Shallot than a Strider with S30V they will move on to a new steel.

With custom makers making the argument that they should switch to "supersteels" is very far off the mark. A great many folks buy custom knives so they can get quality carbon steels brewed from ages old recipes. Wilderness guys like older numerical steels with a few "newer" (within the last 30 years) tool steels thrown in for good measure. Slipjoint collectors like ATS-34 and 1095. Everyone likes damascus, often cooked up from old carbon steels....... I really don't think setting the world on fire with the use of cutting edge steels is high on the list of priorities for custom makers for good reason.

Just for the record, I'm not being a jerk, but, do you see where I am going with this?

 

[Kaizen1]

Just for the record, I'm not being a jerk, but, do you see where I am going with this?

I do. And I think you have a valid point. But I read of makers having problems with their business models and the advancement of cheaper manufacturers sure isn't helping. If something's not working, something needs to change. I wasn't suggesting that high end makers throw everything out and start over with new steels. But I do think this will be an issue for them in the next couple of years. Business models that worked 10 years ago don't necessarily work now. We have customers who have access to places like Blade Forums to get educated on quality knives and they will read about all these new materials and advancements in the industry and will be justified in asking why a Sebenza with a frame lock and a common steel like S30V is worth the dough. We see threads like this often. I love Sebbies btw.

 

[BlackHills]

With custom makers making the argument that they should switch to "supersteels" is very far off the mark...<snip>....... I really don't think setting the world on fire with the use of cutting edge steels is high on the list of priorities for custom makers for good reason.

I agree 100%. If I buy a custom knife it's because of the fit/finish/quality/uniqueness of it, not because it's made with some "super steel". In fact, I don't want a "super steel".....give me good old carbon any day.

 

[Kaizen1]

ATS-34, 154CM, VG10 and S30V are all good enough for me in a folder. A2 or 1095 work just fine for fixed blades. INFI is just gravy. Metallurgy has advanced to the level where one can argue whether the newest "supersteels" are even needed. 154CM holds its edge for ages, and sharpens up lickety split! You really don't need anything much better than that.

We have to remember though that most of this industry like most other industries is based on "wants" and not "needs". Most people don't need cars that can drive over 80 mph, but what do you think would occur if it became mandatory that everyone tweak their cars so that they couldn't go above 80 mph?

 

[Kaizen1]

I agree 100%. If I buy a custom knife it's because of the fit/finish/quality/uniqueness of it, not because it's made with some "super steel". In fact, I don't want a "super steel".....give me good old carbon any day.

This is something I should've emphasized. I don't think makers are going to lose business with people who are already knife "afis". But what about the new customers? I think new customers will have more difficulty justifying the price difference as new steels become more common. Personally I'm fine with 154cm, S30V and the like. But this market is heavily based on the latest-and-greatest model.

 

[moonwilson]

But what about the new customers?

New customers are not the market that companies like Chris Reeve, William Henry and Strider are after. I don't think many folks buy a Sebenza as their first knife. I know I sure didn't. I think most folks start out with lower-end knives and work their way up to the higher-end knives and customs. It takes a while to build up an appreciation that leads one to spend $400+ on a knife. The average guy doesn't need a Sebenza. A Kershaw Leek is probably all the knife most people really NEED.

Most folks don't know what they're missing, and couldn't care less.

 

[BlackHills]

This is something I should've emphasized. I don't think makers are going to lose business with people who are already knife "afis". But what about the new customers? I think new customers will have more difficulty justifying the price difference as new steels become more common. Personally I'm fine with 154cm, S30V and the like. But this market is heavily based on the latest-and-greatest model.

There's no doubt that the power of advertising and the "latest and greatest" has a big effect on many markets. They have to convince you that what you bought last year is outmoded or you won't buy a new one this year. Some people will jump on that bandwagon and some won't.

I think people buying custom knives are less concerned about having the "latest and greatest" and more concerned about the quality and exclusiveness of the knife. I'd venture to say that being able to claim the knife is made with a "super steel" is more important to a large scale maker than to a custom one.

 

[Kaizen1]

New customers are not the market that companies like Chris Reeve, William Henry and Strider are after. I don't think many folks buy a Sebenza as their first knife. I know I sure didn't. I think most folks start out with lower-end knives and work their way up to the higher-end knives and customs.

Should've been clearer. New to high end knives. There is a psychological (among others) transition point from mid-range to high end and we often see threads that end up being hot debates about the justification to do so.

 

[Kaizen1]

There's no doubt that the power of advertising and the "latest and greatest" has a big effect on many markets. They have to convince you that what you bought last year is outmoded or you won't buy a new one this year. Some people will jump on that bandwagon and some won't.

I think people buying custom knives are less concerned about having the "latest and greatest" and more concerned about the quality and exclusiveness of the knife. I'd venture to say that being able to claim the knife is made with a "super steel" is more important to a large scale maker than to a custom one.

I agree with your point on quality and exclusiveness, but exclusiveness is what new steels bring. Consider NiTinol for Strider knives. I believe they demand 3-4x the regular production knives and 2-3x the lower end custom ones. And I believe there may be a reverse effect for not keeping up if the newer steels become more common. Consider your initial reaction of choosing between your favorite custom knife in AUS-8 (which is a perfectly practical steel) vs S30V. I'd also add that S30V didn't used to be as common as it is now. I'm merely suggesting that that cycle will probably be repeating soon. We could have just as easily had this debate about S30V 10 years ago (or whenever it came out).

 

[Charlie Mike]

I think many custom makers stick to the steel they know. They have years of experience obtaining the perfect heat treat. Properly treated 440C can still blow away supersteels.

 

[BlackHills]

I agree with your point on quality and exclusiveness, but exclusiveness is what new steels bring. Consider NiTinol for Strider knives. I believe they demand 3-4x the regular production knives and 2-3x the lower end custom ones. And I believe there may be a reverse effect for not keeping up if the newer steels become more common. Consider your initial reaction of choosing between your favorite custom knife in AUS-8 (which is a perfectly practical steel) vs S30V. I'd also add that S30V didn't used to be as common as it is now. I'm merely suggesting that that cycle will probably be repeating soon. We could have just as easily had this debate about S30V 10 years ago (or whenever it came out).

I guess I just look at it differently than you do and I'm probably in the minority. I don't consider the steel to be part of the exclusiveness, I'm more concerned with other aspects. A good analogy for me is bicycles, carbon fiber is all the rage right now but I don't want a CF bike period. I'd rather have one made the old way with steel and lugs than with the "latest and greatest". I don't care that the steel one is heavier....it has intangible aspects that promote it over the CF in my eyes. I see the custom knife the same way....there's more to it than the sum of the parts.

 

[Kaizen1]

I think many custom makers stick to the steel they know. They have years of experience obtaining the perfect heat treat. Properly treated 440C can still blow away supersteels.

I can see that a properly heat treated 440C blade can hold its own, but to say that it can blow away supersteels seems to push it too far. And the key with new steels is that they seem to bring greater potential for performance. If we can get so much out of 440C, I would guess that we can get that much more out of the newer steels. But because we are using ambiguity in our descriptions right now, it will depend on what specifically we are referring to.

 

[Kaizen1]

I guess I just look at it differently than you do and I'm probably in the minority. I don't consider the steel to be part of the exclusiveness, I'm more concerned with other aspects.

Based on this thread, I seem like the minority. I think your post highlights something important for makers as well. I think you represent a good portion of their market and I don't think it would be necessary to completely do away with their current processes.

And to be clear, I personally don't need the latest and greatest. I'me very happy with my S30V DDR and BG-42 Snody. But ask me to trade them with an exact model except that the other models have ATS-34 (not considering collector value), and I'll call you crazy. Nothing against ATS-34 but if I have a choice, I will go with the steels I already have.

A good analogy for me is bicycles, carbon fiber is all the rage right now but I don't want a CF bike period. I'd rather have one made the old way with steel and lugs than with the "latest and greatest". I don't care that the steel one is heavier....it has intangible aspects that promote it over the CF in my eyes. I see the custom knife the same way....there's more to it than the sum of the parts.

The materials matter somewhat don't they? If we take this example, I think we will find that you are favoring a certain era in bike making. Which would also mean that you are favoring that specific era over an older generation.

 

[BlackHills]

The materials matter somewhat don't they? If we take this example, I think we will find that you are favoring a certain era in bike making. Which would also mean that you are favoring that specific era over an older generation.

They matter to some degree, sure. As long as it (bike or knife) is made out of a quality steel then beyond that it's not a big deal to me. I favor some steels above others and certainly I would refrain from buying something with a steel I thought was inferior....but then I wouldn't be considering that maker if he used inferior steel. If anything, I'd be more inclined to avoid a maker because he was using the "latest and greatest" than something that was time tested.

 

[Kaizen1]

They matter to some degree, sure. As long as it (bike or knife) is made out of a quality steel then beyond that it's not a big deal to me. I favor some steels above others and certainly I would refrain from buying something with a steel I thought was inferior....but then I wouldn't be considering that maker if he used inferior steel. If anything, I'd be more inclined to avoid a maker because he was using the "latest and greatest" than something that was time tested.

I agree that makers would be taking a risk with the very "latest and greatest", but one of my points is that some of the "new" steels are becoming so much more common that they are in (or are nearing) the phase that they can be reasonably called "time tested" in the same way that S30V can now be called that.

 

[Brutus013]

When I look at custom knives (and I'm not saying I buy custom knives), the steel isn't the main factor. No custom maker is going to use bad steel. I usually just take it as a given that they are using 1095, S30V, or D2, and even when they're not it's some other quality steel. However, even if a custom maker were using what some would consider low quality, like AUS8, I would be more worried with the overall design, build quality, and fit and finish. However, I don't think I would buy ANY knife, let alone a custom knife, that used something like 440A.