High grit stone or stroping compounds?

[DeadboxHero]

Which do you use and why?

I'm going to invest in either an 8k Naniwa stone or a strop with 1 and .5 micron abrasives.

Can't decide.

 

[Steel130]

This will probably get moved to maintenance. However.

If I am going to a high polish I end on a Spyderco UF and either a touch of water, or maybe a micron diamond spray. That and light pressure, with proper technique, will give a sharp edge capable of good push cuts.

Normally I just finish my edge on a Spyderco medium stone.

So to answer your question I would go with the 8k stone. But I haven't used a strop in a bout a year or so. So I'm biased more towards stones.

 

[strategy9]

High grit stone to sharpen... Finishing step for when you sit down and sharpen...

Stropping compound to hone and keep sharp, so you don't have to sit down at the stones quite as often...

Both serve an individual purpose.

 

[DeadboxHero]

Nope, 8k is moving out of the sharpening department my man.
Thats a finishing stone.
Regardless.

Which would you invest in?. I want both but can't afford both

 

[Jason B.]

What do you have now?

 

[awestib]

Jason, you beat me every time ...

I don't know about the 8K Naniwa as a finishing stone but JasonB here on BF mentioned recently using a 16K Shapton as the finishing stone to avoid the need for a strop. There is some info on https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/tag/straight-razor/ about 8K Shapton also. I do not know what is better, however I do believe that the final product looks different. The stone is a non-giving surface so you will have either no or a slight flat microbevel depending on your finishing technique. On a strop however, preferable Balsa, thin cardboard, Paper on hard backing, Nanocloth etc. you will have a micro-convex finish. Whether you would feel the difference (other than using razors) I am not sure.

 

[DeadboxHero]

Currently I have a great setup.

extra course DMT stone.
aluminum oxide combo stone 600/800 grit
king 1k
king 6k
soft wood to pull through edge for de-burr
chromium oxide green compound (from hardware store)loaded on a leather belt
then I load the other side with mud from my 6k stone.
newspaper.

 

[yepimonfire]

I know i've had burring problems on some steels that can't be solved on a high grit stone regardless of what I do. That's where a strop comes in. I've also taken a strop to a relatively coarse edge off a fine india (which is really not that fine, it's like 320 grit) and gotten tree topping edges. I think it depends on what grit your last stone was. The compound I use is white jewelers rouge, which is relatively quick cutting but leaves a very fine edge. It will quickly give a tree topping edge even if you finish on a DMT coarse. 1 micron diamond seemed to take a long time to polish off my fine india. I used to go through the whole progression from 1k, 4k, then 8k but I find there's really no point in doing that when you can finish at virtually any medium grit with a strop and get a better edge. Not only will it tree top but also is toothy enough to slice quickly. Personally I would go with 3 micron diamond if you're not already coming off a very fine stone. I've got pastes going from 3-.1 micron and honestly when cutting I can't tell any difference in sharpness, but the 3k will polish it quicker and still leave a mirror finish.

Regardless of what you buy, a strop is an invaluable tool for finishing to that perfect edge and there is no reason why you shouldn't add it into your sharpening kit at some point.

 

[HeavyHanded]

I use both/either depending. The strop as a finishing step generally less QC for burr formation, much more forgiving of angle control in some respects as long as you don't go too broad with it, not very tolerant of pressure variation unless using the harder forms.

Finishing stones require better angle control and are equally if not more intolerant of pressure variation. In general the stone finished edge will be more precise but more challenging to create, stropping is the reverse. As Andy mentions, for most it comes down to slight changes in final edge character. Depending on how its approached the actual difference might be very slight.

Stropping can be as inexpensive as a sheet of paper wrapped around a benchstone or dry waterstone and seeded with waterstone grit or honing compound. Try both. For many, the strop becomes a crutch, but used properly is a nice finishing option. Using a fine finish waterstone will challenge your skills, which can only help all other aspects of your work.

 

[DeadboxHero]

Here are my current results with this setup.

After

 

[DeadboxHero]

Great advice Heavy thank you.

 

[Steel130]

I use both/either depending. The strop as a finishing step generally less QC for burr formation, much more forgiving of angle control in some respects as long as you don't go too broad with it, not very tolerant of pressure variation unless using the harder forms.

Finishing stones require better angle control and are equally if not more intolerant of pressure variation. In general the stone finished edge will be more precise but more challenging to create, stropping is the reverse. As Andy mentions, for most it comes down to slight changes in final edge character. Depending on how its approached the actual difference might be very slight.

Stropping can be as inexpensive as a sheet of paper wrapped around a benchstone or dry waterstone and seeded with waterstone grit or honing compound. Try both. For many, the strop becomes a crutch, but used properly is a nice finishing option. Using a fine finish waterstone will challenge your skills, which can only help all other aspects of your work.

Good info, I've been practicing finishing on a high grit stone for two years now, so I've had time to learn burr minimizing techniques ect.

For someone starting though this is much tougher, and not knowing the issues that can occur could just lead to frustration. Not knocking stropping, it's still a great tool for people.

I personally find that by finishing on a stone, I keep the high polish, but also keep an edge with plenty of slicing aggression, respectively.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Great advice Heavy thank you.

You're very welcome.

As another consideration to go with your existing set-up - I find it more effective to use the waterstone mud on a piece of smooth poplar as opposed to using it on paper or leather.

It can work either way, but lacking any binder that was intended to hold it in place, it seems to work better over wood. I let it dry out as much as possible before use, if a few drops from the blade get on it is fine, just don't want it to go mobile. I also have cut a 1/4" slice off the end of all my waterstones and use the cut-off as a rubbing/deglazing/mud whipper-upper. When I use the waterstone mud for stropping compound I prefer a good amount.

I have used this method even smearing the mud on the edge of a cutting board and hold it over a low burner to dry it out real quick. Is very convenient and effective, and I usually deglaze the stone when finishing anyway so have mud to spare right when I need it.

In theory the Chromium Oxide would be last if you still needed to spice it up. On most steel should be a pretty fine edge.

Martin

 

[Jason B.]

Here are my current results with this setup.

After

So, the Sharpening you are doing is not the normal sharpening that most everyone thinks about. This is Japanese kataba sharpening. It looks like you are doing fairly well but two things stand out. First, that is a deba, 2k-4k should be the edge finish for that type of blade, higher grits will only make it less useful. Second, you don't need an 8k you need a 2k to bridge the gap you have between the 1k and 6k. It might not sound like much but the 2k makes a big difference and allows a much easier transition to the 6k.

In this case I would recommend the Shapton Pro 2k, it's a harder stone and will work well with the deba. If used to finish it will yield a more ideal edge and if you like the higher polish it will allow better refinement of the blade road and the cutting edge. It will probably help get the back of that blade a little better too. Having the back Ura polished properly is very important and can make a huge difference in edge quality.

Edge deburring on the type of blade is best done by a few lateral strokes on the back of the blade with the finishing stone. More of a heel to tip edge trailing pull over the width of the stone. If burr problems persist then stropping on plain leather or denim would be my recommendation.

 

[DeadboxHero]

thanks Jason, I don't actually sharpen a lot of single bevel knives. This was just for a friend. Great tips.
I put a micro bevel on it to help strengthen the edge and remove the burr.
the global steel doesn't hold a zero grind well.

$62 not bad for a sharpton stone.

rumor has it these are the fastest cutters to.

Im really looking for more advice though on the high grit stones and diamond compounds.

Jason, Whats your opinion on the Naniwa "snow white" 8k stone?

 

[Jason B.]

Good call on the microbevel, it's mandatory on single bevels IMO.

Yes, the Shaptons are very fast and really excel at sharpening.

For high grit stones its very important to have the lower grits covered too, that 1k-6k gap is what's really hurting the progression to finer grits.

For compounds go 1 micron diamond, it works very well on everything and doesn't smooth the edge too much like 0.5 micron compound can.

The Snow White or 8K Naniwa Traditional stone (it's new name) is very good but it has the tendency to crack, I'm hoping they fixed that issue by making them thinner. It's very hard and very fast for an 8K stone but I mainly use it for straight razors and Yanagi/Usuaba. I find an 8K edge to be too much refinement on anything else but if you really wan an 8K or higher here are a few options.

Snow White- The best 8k I have used thus far.

8K Kitayama- Very high finish possible, fairly hard, and pretty fast. I have a love hate relationship with this stone.

10K Imanishi- Soft like a King 6K but puts on a near flawless shine. Being very soft makes it a little tough to use at times.

8K Naniwa SS- Soft but easy to use, LOT'S OF POLISH!

Shapton 8K- Probably recommend the Glass over the Pro, the 8k Glass would be easier to randomly put into a set than the Pro stone which likes to be used with other pro stones.

For the money the 8k Snow White is hard to beat.

 

[DeadboxHero]

Wow, thank you. That would have costed a ton to find out on my own.
Naniwa super stones seem real affordable and convenient.
I love polish too.

How about chosera stones? Do they live up to the hype?

 

[Jason B.]

Chosera stones are very nice, the 3000 is one I would pick up just to have, it's great as a finishing stone or to make that transition from medium to fine grits. It's shining feature is grit uniformity, this allows a very clean and even scratch pattern that really helps the transition to a finer stone. They are harder like Shapton's but get fairly muddy, not like the Kings though it's more of a black swarf with a little stone mixed in, I call it a silky mud. This quality make using them very enjoyable but overall I would only recommend them if you sharpen a lot of Japanese Kitchen knives with mainly carbon steels, it's where they really excel.

The only down side to the Chosera line is their coarse stone selection. It only goes down to 400 and their 400 is not very coarse. Personally, I think it compares more to a 600-800 grit stone. On the high end the 5k and 10k really push the price and you might not find the polish to be any better than most of the 8k stones I listed. With these stones you get a more dull polish because there is more abrasive in the stone and it cuts through the steel with a minimal burnishing or smooth polishing effect like you see with your 6k.

Here is an example of a 5k Shapton Pro stones finish. Notice the clean grind pattern but the lack of polish. Now, at the right angle it looks like a mirror but this is the type of grind pattern you find with High quality stones. More abrasive and less binder gives these results.

 

[DeadboxHero]

I've never had an easier time getting answers on this forum.

Fantastic!

Thanks for all your help!