High Grit Stone - Waste of $

High grit stones leave a better finish then a comparable strop.
I couldn't afford both so I bought a strop with cbn compounds hoping for the best of both worlds, Much more convenient to use, less maintaince and stone cracking issues. Yet, the strop doent seem to work the same as a stone. It burnishs more then abrades. I still long for an 8k stone for making pretty mirrior polished bevels on my Japanese knives.

The strop can't achieve the same results.

Being a practical guy like yourself. Yes a high grit stone is useless but isn't a strop useless too with the same logic?
If wanted to apply the same logic and be the ultimate pragmatist then why use more the one stone?
Hair shaving edges can be made off my 220 grit diamond stone, why go further?
 
I'm glad you were able to re-articulate your thoughts, I think the initial post, and your first reply set an antagonistic tone. Hopefully we can take something constructive out of this thread.

I never said you broke any rules, you just walked in like a man looking for an argument, or agreement, not discussion. If you have lurked here, you also know this place is littered with pedantic SOBs that will answer the question you asked, not the one you wanted and answer to.

Is there a place for high grit stones in sharpening? yes, my finest stone is an 8k ceramic that does a treat on certain blades. It was cheap.
Are strops worth while, and good value? Yes a careful user can get very good performance out of a few bucks of leather and a variety of cheap compounds.
Are expensive stones worth the asking price? Maybe, depends on what you are sharpening, and how fine an edge you require.
Will a strop do everything a very expensive natural Japanese water stone do? No. they are an apples to oranges comparison, each does its thing well. But comparing strops to stones is like comparing stones to stones, nats to manufactured, European to Japanese, shaptons to nortons. There will never be an end to that debate.
 
sovernstrength said:
...Why would anyone buy a 200 dollar stone at a high grit when you can buy a strop?
...Unless I am missing a crucial detail, it seems to be only a matter of preference.
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well, one obvious thing,
strops have "give" , they require different technique (edge trailing)
than stones
 
I don't understand why anyone would buy a strop. All they do is polish and even if your careful they will polish off your edge. Sure a dull polished edge can cut but not like a nice fine grit sharp edge. Strops are just a big waste of $$$. Why would anyone spend $ on them when you can pay for a really nice stone, that will give you a sharper and longer lasting edge than the dull rounded polished strop edge?
 
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The finer the grit, the finer the cut. Providing you can stay true to the edges angle. Which is of greater importance when you go higher grit. Finer grit also leads to a polished edge that reduces needless drag on the cut too. My bet is you have not felt or seen the rewards of proper sharpening on finer stones.

Some will never see or feel that. And at 220-440, You might never. That's ok for you & many others. I personally couldn't imagine a fine clay tempered hamon or damascus steel sword, with a 440 finish. They wouldn't look or cut the same either.

I assume you are using a more recent factory knife. And common factory knives really don't need (didn't say can't bennifet from) the over kill of 2k+ stones. You will rarely see it done by a factory. While mostly from proud knife makers & owners who can do such skilled things with high end stones.

P.s. my best "stone" is a Smith duel sided corse & fine diamond stone. So I'm not a stone snob by any means.
 
Upset? Valid points? Probably not on both counts.

So, you don't lack any experience yet you don't know the use for high grit stones?

You keep saying $200 stone when most waterstones are between $40-$100?

So far, I see it as your the upset one with loads of ignorance. You are here trying to stir up an arguement and it's not working. You will find yourself very lonely with your arguments here.
 
Jason B. said:
Upset? Valid points? Probably not on both counts.

So, you don't lack any experience yet you don't know the use for high grit stones?

You keep saying $200 stone when most waterstones are between $40-$100?

So far, I see it as your the upset one with loads of ignorance. You are here trying to stir up an arguement and it's not working. You will find yourself very lonely with your arguments here.
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Hi again, Jason.

What I see is that you are having a hard time coping with someone who has finally asked the question you are reluctant to hear as a knife hobbyist. I could care less if I lack experience in being a "water stone specialist" like yourself. It doesn't take someone short of a fool to realize a high grit stone has no practical benefit towards an EDC blade (which I should have initially catered my argument to).

Again, it doesn't really matter for you Jason, because you like to play with your tools, where I like to sharpen them in the most efficient means possible. So, until you can provide reasonable, intelligent facts, like other users have, the principle that a high grit stone is unnecessary is understood.

You are the one who seems lonely. You did read the previous comments?

Happy day to you, Jason.
 
sovernstrength said:
Hi again, Jason.

What I see is that you are having a hard time coping with someone who has finally asked the question you are reluctant to hear as a knife hobbyist. I could care less if I lack experience in being a "water stone specialist" like yourself. It doesn't take someone short of a fool to realize a high grit stone has no practical benefit towards an EDC blade (which I should have initially catered my argument to).

Again, it doesn't really matter for you Jason, because you like to play with your tools, where I like to sharpen them in the most efficient means possible. So, until you can provide reasonable, intelligent facts, like other users have, the principle that a high grit stone is unnecessary is understood.

You are the one who seems lonely. You did read the previous comments?

Happy day to you, Jason.
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I have to second his observation re lack of experience. Higher polish grade stones have a smaller margin of error for use, it takes a higher level of skill to get the most out of them. This alone could be forming most of your opinion and would not be an uncommon observation.

For EDU it likely won't matter, and if you had read into any of the other threads on the forum, you'd find that Jason and large number of other forumites actually agree that higher polishes are not really useful for EDU. That would be a conditional statement. If EDU means bushcrafting or other cutting that involves lots of fine pushcutting etc, a higher polish is warranted.

To then claim that a double strop provides the same finish as a polishing grade stone, especially on a steel with large carbides like D2 is not well informed...in my opinion, which you are welcome to take or not. When you start a thread you will get opinions, often they will be counter to yours.

Stropping can in some cases provide a very good jump up from medium to low grit stone finishes, often it comes with a cost in cutting qualities. So yes, a matter of preference as you mentioned in your first post, but a matter of preference with reasons. No one that has a bunch of experience will waste time and effort if there's no payoff.
 
To say "I don't need a high grit hone so I won't spend my money on one" is a statement of personal need and preference.

To say "Nobody needs a high grit hone and they're wasting their money if they buy one" is an arrogant presumption.

After reading the OP's posts in this thread, I am of the opinion that he had no interest in discussing whether or not anyone actually "needs" a high grit hone. Nor do I believe that he would accept anyones explanation as to why they feel they need a higher grit hone, or why such a hone might be of value. Instead, I get the impression that he wanted to declare himself an "expert" and tell everyone who uses a high grit hone that they are stupid for "wasting" their money by buying something "unnecessary".

Just what Bladeforums needs, another "expert" who eagerly declares "My way is the right way and anyone who does differently is wrong". :rolleyes:

Only someone who considers themselves an "expert" would presume to tell a bunch of total strangers what THEY need without any knowledge of their blades or how they use them. I'll be sure to ignore anything the OP posts in the future. I don't need total strangers telling me what I need, or telling me when I have wasted my money.
 
Unless this has morphed into something else...? I think sovern has a point and I've seen Jason will snip and put down/ belittle those that don't agree with him.
They're many in this forum that are OCD but hey they like to obsess over sharpening. It's allowed. Still, we need to accept basic sharpening as well. Just a decent everyday sharp edge. But topics like this tend to bring out a put down. DM
 
I believe that the the early responses were based on the OP's first post that did not mention that he was talking about EDC or EDU blades. That makes for two very different arguments/agreements. Bottom line is sharpen your knives however makes you happy and gives you the performance that you are happy with. It is silly to put people down because they take a different approach to achieving their performance goals.
 
sovernstrength said:
I'd like to present an argument here that high grit stones, water stones, Arkansas, etc are a waste of money. I question someone who spends $200 on a jap water stone, at say, 6000 grit.

Personally, I think any stone above 2000 is a waste. And 2000 is pushing it... I came to this conclusion when I let the Lansky System in the box for a change and broke out the old 400? Grit Smith stone I have. I started putting an edge on the D2 of my Bravo 1. After the 400, I went to a (800?) Cheap little Arkansas stone. Stropped the blade on my 2 strops. I found the edge was very sharp and polished, like you would expect from a strop.

Furthermore, have used my 400 course edge on a strop and brought it to a clean polished edge.

Why would anyone buy a 200 dollar stone at a high grit when you can buy a strop? Sure, one can aruge that a high grit stone with truly give you a mirror edge.

Unless I am missing a crucial detail, it seems to be only a matter of preference.
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I think you're assertions are off on a couple of counts, at least as they are written above, without the limit of discussing EDC blades only.

First, high grit stones are not universally expensive. My 4k stone was <$30. Second, without the limit of EDC blades, there are a world of uses that do require high polish that is not done with just a strop alone. If limited to EDC blades, I find even stropping is a waste of time and would certainly not pay for one. I used knives sharpened as you for a while, stropping off a coarse or medium stone. I much prefer the edge I get now with just a 2 sided coarse/fine stone. It saves time and money. Third, I feel that, given a strop and stone of equal grit, the only benefit of the strop is they are generally less expensive, though i've certainly seen strops that were more expensive than my finest stone. The edge from the stone will be better. The other limit is availability. There is a point where finding a stone that fine is just not possible. Finally, not everyone here is a hobbyist. Some, Jason included, make a living sharpening various tools for various industries, and their customers see benefit from higher grits and are willing to pay for the polish.
 
From what I understand, fine-grit edges are best geared towards push cutting while lower grit edges (properly apexed--no burr) will perform better in slicing tasks.
 
Great points and ideas, folks.

There are so many posts I cannot individually thank or respond in a timely manner.

But just to reiterate my intentions and provide a concluded idea here... Again, had no intentions to bash high grit stone users. If you enjoy using a high grit stone, that's your preference. I could give a damn what someone else does with their tools. I'm just curious for the reasoning. The question was directed towards EDC and not a jumble of other tools. That is my fault for my lack of mentioning.

So I will conclude with my initial position on high grit stones. For me, they will never be required to receive an edge that shaves and has a polished edge. Personally, as I stated, I don't find their use practical. And I'm not a lousy sharpener. My edges must shave or I'm not happy.

Lots of great arguments and opinions. Thank you
 
If your goal is just sharpening a basic tool that isn't highly specialized where it being sharp is enough than a a basic stone that you can pick up at a hardware store will get the job done as long as your technique is good. And for most of the population that will hold true. Where things get a little fuzzy is when you are in places like this part of the forum where it's a hobby and we buy different types of sharpening stones just to produce different finishes and try to justify it. Most of us can get by with less but will choose not to as we take some type of pleasure in sharpening or the different results we get using different tools. But some of us have legitimate needs for it due to using specialized tools that really benefit from using a higher grit stone (straight razors for example) or more specialized tools to meet our sharpening needs where a basic stone will be lacking.

At the end of the day it's all a matter of preference for most people whether they need it or not they actually need it. After all if we all bought cars based on need today most of the new cars bought in the USA would be either a Prius C, Prius, or Prius V due to the nature of it being more practical because it's a hatchback, fuel economy, and reliability of their hybrid system. But where is the fun in that.
 
I see allot of pocket knives. I take them to 600 grit then strop with 4 micron CBN. This is on the belt grinder as there isn't time for anything else. I carry a couple of simple Spyderco VG-10 knives. I haven't sharpened them for at least two years. I just take them to the strops on a regular basis. So I can agree that an everyday carry knife used as a tool daily really doesn't need to taken to those higher grits unless the owner wants to.
 
sovernstrength said:
I'd like to present an argument here that high grit stones, water stones, Arkansas, etc are a waste of money. I question someone who spends $200 on a jap water stone, at say, 6000 grit.
Click to expand...

First, I'm sure you probably meant to say 'Japanese' rather than Jap... It really is offensive.
Next, they are a waste of money to those who believe them to be a waste of money, valuable to those who value the edge we get from them.

Every type of sharpening abrasive leaves a slightly different edge. If you don't value the edge left by an old stone from one of the Arashiyama mines, and prefer what you get from a strop, that's perfectly understandable. Everyone has a different level of tolerance. Some like 10,000 grit, others are satisfied at 600 grit.

One man's meat is another man's fish.
 
David Martin said:
Unless this has morphed into something else...? I think sovern has a point and I've seen Jason will snip and put down/ belittle those that don't agree with him.
They're many in this forum that are OCD but hey they like to obsess over sharpening. It's allowed. Still, we need to accept basic sharpening as well. Just a decent everyday sharp edge. But topics like this tend to bring out a put down. DM
Click to expand...

Years go by and you still can't let a grudge go? You feel the need to put your two cents in about me any chance you get? I don't put you name in my mouth but I can start if you want me to?

So hate on hater, but remember, I'm a professional and known for being very good at what I do so your negative comments are merely comedy in the daily grind. How about I do one better? How about you send me an email and tell me all about how I wronged you? That way we keep the thread clean.

Sovern,

It's been fun but this is too much excitement for me, I'm out.
 
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