High tech blades in the kitchen

K

Knife Outlet

Joined
Jan 4, 1999
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It should come as no suprise to this group that the Japanese make the best kitchen knives on the planet. Cutlery has been almost a religion in Japan for centuries. The gyuto is the Japanese version of our Western chef knife. It features thin hard blades, acute bevel angles, perfect balance and all of this relates to using high tech steels in their manufacture. These 4 are all the same size - 240mm or about 9 1/2" in blade size. They are my personal favorites among my chef knives.

240gyutos.jpg


On the left is a Kikuichi Elite Carbon gyuto made from Hitachi shirogami carbon steel hardened to RC64-65. It's corroded but very, very sharp.

Next to it is my Misono UX-10 made from a Sandvik tool steel hardened to around RC59-60. The bolster, believe it or not, is nickel silver.

To its right is the Masamoto VG-10. That's right, solid VG-10 hardened to RC60-61 or so.

On right is the Nenohi Nenox S1 gyuto with an unknown Japanese powder tool steel blade hardened to around RC 62-63. It features snakewood scales and a price tag that would take your breath away. The knife performs every bit as nicely as it looks.

Thought you might enjoy seeing that high tech cutlery goes well beyond the world of tactical knives. Good cooking.
 
Thanks for the pics! I've been interested in getting some decent Japanese cutlery. Any advice on a good but medium price place to start?
 
Thanks for the pictures and descriptions! I always enjoy looking at high quality kitchen knives. So why don't you entertain us with the break taking price tag of that Nenohi Neox S1 gyuote and where we can get one, if they are available. :)
 
basjoo said:
Thanks for the pics! I've been interested in getting some decent Japanese cutlery. Any advice on a good but medium price place to start?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what medium price means to you but, if you stay with carbon steel, you'll get all the performance benefits of Japanese cutlery except for corrosion resistance at a reasonable price. I have carbon steel gyutos from Kikuichi, Masamoto, Misono and Suisin and all are excellent performers. The Kikuichi and Masamoto have the hardest blades.

The knife on the left should cost around $100 and change. The two in the middle are around $250 each and the Nenox is between $350 and $400 in the U.S., a fairly high price tag for a kitchen chopper - but what a chopper! A friend recently bought a Hattori KD made with powder steel in suminagashi style and it was about $1100. The Watanabe Kintaro Ami is around the same price. So they can get a little pricey.

Wade, I think the best place to get the S1 is from Japan directly. http://www.japanesechefsknife.com has incredible service. They'll ship your knife right away by mail and it will arrive in about 3 or 4 days. It is the same company that operates Seki Cut.
 
Thanks for the reply. Medium price, to me, means US$100 or under. Any good stainless knive for that price? I guess I'm looking for the best bang for the buck: performance, balance, fit and finish etc. Do you have an opinion on a specific company that you feel meets those qualifications?
 
This is my high tech japanese kitchen knife - it is warikomy (laminated) blade with HighSpeedSteel in core and stainless on sides. 5/128 " thick, convex grind (double sided - japanese makes single sided only if needed) and only cons is that it goes throw cutting board. Price is 44 eur at www.dick.biz.

GoldenDeer-HSS-01.jpg


Hopefuly they will start making tactical ones with this warikomy.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
basjoo said:
Thanks for the reply. Medium price, to me, means US$100 or under. Any good stainless knive for that price? I guess I'm looking for the best bang for the buck: performance, balance, fit and finish etc. Do you have an opinion on a specific company that you feel meets those qualifications?
Click to expand...

Also they (www.dick.biz) have sameone with ATS-34 in core.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
basjoo said:
Thanks for the reply. Medium price, to me, means US$100 or under. Any good stainless knive for that price? I guess I'm looking for the best bang for the buck: performance, balance, fit and finish etc. Do you have an opinion on a specific company that you feel meets those qualifications?
Click to expand...

You might have to get a shorter knife than the ones I mentioned. Go to japanesechefsknife.com and check out the Tojiro DP series. Very good value.
 
WadeF said:
Thanks for the pictures and descriptions! I always enjoy looking at high quality kitchen knives. So why don't you entertain us with the break taking price tag of that Nenohi Neox S1 gyuote and where we can get one, if they are available. :)
Click to expand...

www.nenohi.co.jp probably... 'course I can't read Japanese but damn that's a beautiful knife.
 
Ah, I recognize
砥石
toishi / grindstone / whetstone
and 牛刀 gyuutou / cow sword (western style/gyuto), but that's about it. Some nice Nenox there.
 
nozh2002 said:
Hopefuly they will start making tactical ones with this warikomy.

Thanks, Vassili.
Click to expand...

Fallkniven has been providing warikomi style blades for a little while. Cold Steel has been doing it even longer but with softer steel in the hagane.
 
Knife Outlet said:
Fallkniven has been providing warikomi style blades for a little while. Cold Steel has been doing it even longer but with softer steel in the hagane.
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So far nobody making HSS in core with stainless sides. Which is super - wear resistance and high hardness of HSS combined with corrosion resistance of stainless.

I prefer Helle and regular Japanese knives - they have much more resonable prices.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
No, but there are some very hard powder steels used as hagane in some of the Fallknivens. Check out the Tre Kronor line and the U2.
 
Knife Outlet said:
It should come as no suprise to this group that the Japanese make the best kitchen knives on the planet.
Click to expand...
Lots of western cutlery can easily compete with Japanese blades in terms of cutting ability, edge retention and corrosion resistance. Phil Wilson has a kitchen knife line which runs from AISI 420 HC way up to S90V and CPM-15V.

I have not used George Tichbournes knives but he could easily grind as fine an edge, considering some of the knives he makes, they would be a step up in terms of thickness. He usually runs 440C which is a fine choice for kitchen knives.

Alvin Johnson makes various kitchen knives in various alloys, very thin edges on high hollow grinds out of full hard, 1095, O1, M2 etc. .

Not to say the Japanese don't make great knives, however calling them better than all western customs is a bit of a stretch. There are inexpensive Japanese knives though that are hard to beat, like the ones Lee Valley sells for about twenty bucks.

-Cliff
 
I'll stick to my guns on this one. My experience with kitchen knives made by North American custom knife makers is uniformly negative. In general they are poorly balanced or suffer from one ergonomic problem or another. That isn't to say I've tested them all but I've tested some famous ones and some not so famous and found them all (every one) to be inferior and noticeably so to Japanese knives like the ones I have pictured. Some are truly beautiful but I'm talking about performance in the kitchen. I have tested over 200 chef knives and reviewed 60 or 70 of them so I speak from a reasonable level of experience. I think the steels you mention are capable of producing excellent knives but I doubt they would be any better than the steels used in the ones above. I don't doubt that the steels used by the custom makers can't be excellent. I've found most of them (not all of them) to be pretty good. Once you get past the steel, though, it isn't even a horse race. I would truly love to encounter a North American made knife that works like my gyutos. I really mean that. It saddens me that I can't.

I have also never encountered an individual that prefers a European or North American made knife after testing one of these. That's hundreds of people, both amateur and professional, by the way. Not one didn't or wouldn't make the switch. Come and I'll show you. I'll even provide a little kitchen knife skills training. You won't believe the difference.

Andy, these are Western style knives I'm talking about. Traditional Japanese knives are another dimension completely. I'm talking about Western style knives, but high end ones made in Japan. They are clearly the best kitchen knives made on the planet. Clearly.
 
yuzuha said:
Ah, I recognize
砥石
toishi / grindstone / whetstone
and 牛刀 gyuutou / cow sword (western style/gyuto), but that's about it. Some nice Nenox there.
Click to expand...

It is entertaining to find out what some of these terms are when literally translated from the Japanese. The gyuto, it seems, was designed originally for meat butchery and so was called the cow sword. As Western style cooking became popular in Japan, chefs began using this knife for chopping in the same fashion we chop with them in the West. The only traditional Japanese knife designed for chopping was the miroshi deba which wasn't (and isn't) used much in Japanese cooking. The santoku (three virtues) was a little short for chopping but was pressed into service when necessary. The gyuto worked out a lot better. It took the Japanese a while to get the hang of chopping with a knife Western style but they managed it, even if the tool they used was called a cow sword.
 
I'm not trying to browbeat anybody. Let me provide the only two possible candidates of decent competition to the Japanese gyuto that I know about.

One custom maker named Kramer from Canada is said to make outstanding chef knives that balance and function properly. While I haven't tested them myself, I have this information from individuals that I would consider to be knowledgable. So it is possible that competition to the Japanese gyuto is available in North America. I just haven't encountered it personally.

Also to be fair, I should mention that F. Dick makes a line of kitchen knives in Germany in the Japanese style with Japanese materials and methods. The series is named after the year F. Dick was founded (I forgot what it is.) I haven't tested these either since they aren't available in the U.S. but they do appear to be potential candidates to be among the best kitchen knives on the planet. They are fairly expensive with the chef knives running around $500 or so.

So let me amend my statement to say that the vast majority (almost all) of the best kitchen knives made on the planet come from Japan. Every one of the very many I have tested come from Japan. Good cooking.
 
Knife Outlet said:
No, but there are some very hard powder steels used as hagane in some of the Fallknivens. Check out the Tre Kronor line and the U2.
Click to expand...

I have U2 bought from you. But HSS is different then powder SGPS. And to Fallkniven I rather prefer norvegian Helle or Japanese knives made for Japan market (knives they make for Western market like Fallkniven I think higly overpriced (it is ironic that swedish company selling Japanese knives while Sweden has good laminaded blades traditions)).

I hope this blades came to the market soon - few years ago nobody sell laminated folders - Hiro Little Blue was first (is was strange combination VG10+VG10+VG10, I don't understand it yet), then U2 and now we have them from different brands. However it is all japanese (for example Fallkniven) but I like to see scandinavian blade with thick core and thin sides.

I am wondering will sombody start maknig this in US? Even Russian now making laminated blades in production - Uzhny Crest for example.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Honestly, Vassili, I don't see it happening here. The manufacturers in the U.S. are sending the manufacturing overseas rather than trying to innovate and improve products at home. I think we will see warikomi blades coming from China before we ever see one made in the U.S. I'm not familiar enough with the manufacturing technology to know what is involved but it may be that it requires a lot of hand work and you won't see that in the U.S. Instead of mechanizing hand work we just export the work.

I have suggested to the German kitchen manufacturers that the first one of them to make knives like the Japanese will score a large gain in market share. A high perfomance knife with a name like Wusthof or Henckels will be a success in the market. Kai has been hugely successful in the U.S. with the Shun line of kitchen cutlery. It is really the first time Americans in significant numbers have been exposed to thin, hard blades. They seem to like the results and Kai has gone from unknown to one of the top 5 brands in the U.S. in only a handful of years. I'm not privy to Kershaw's numbers but I'm willing to bet that the Shun line is by far the biggest thing they have ever seen. The Shun knives aren't quite the performers that you see in the image above but they are very much better than the traditional European knives that so many American cooks consider to be the best.

Having said all that, I think it is fair to predict that, as the Taiwanese and Chinese get into the technology, and I think they will, we will begin to see it in sporting and tactical knives as a fairly common thing.

You need to keep in mind that the annual sales of the entire sporting and tactical knife industry wouldn't make a decent month's sales at Dell Computer. So we're dealing with a tiny industry that doesn't have the resources or need to innovate on that scale. We'll see what happens. Take care.
 
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