High tech blades in the kitchen

[Cliff Stamp]

My experience with kitchen knives made by North American custom knife makers is uniformly negative.

There are a lot of custom knives of all types which can't outperform various productions, this doesn't mean I would argue custom knives in general are inferior.

Which custom knifemakers have you used who can't match the performance of those Japanese knives when you told them exactly the type of performance you were looking for?

I would truly love to encounter a North American made knife that works like my gyutos.

Any decent custom knife maker could simply grind you an exact copy if you wanted. All you had to do was go on the custom forum and ask.

I have also never encountered an individual that prefers a European or North American made knife after testing one of these.

Sure, you compare a high end Japanese knife to most western production knives and the Japanese knives come off pretty strong in comparison in regards to cutting ability and light stress edge retention.

Most western knives, in general, are left with thicker edges on softer steels because the kitchen work here is generally harder on knives than over there so more support is needed at the edge which has to be more forgiving.

However if you want that type of design here it isn't impossible or even difficult to find.

-Cliff

 

[Nosmo]

Thanks for the great post Knife Outlet. Very informative.
I only have one gyuto, but it has quickly become the blade I pick when faced with a kitchen chore. It just seems to do a better job than 'all the others acquired over time' that litter my wife's kitchen.

 

[Knife Outlet]

There are a lot of custom knives of all types which can't outperform various productions, this doesn't mean I would argue custom knives in general are inferior.

Which custom knifemakers have you used who can't match the performance of those Japanese knives when you told them exactly the type of performance you were looking for?


Any decent custom knife maker could simply grind you an exact copy if you wanted. All you had to do was go on the custom forum and ask.


Sure, you compare a high end Japanese knife to most western production knives and the Japanese knives come off pretty strong in comparison in regards to cutting ability and light stress edge retention.

Most western knives, in general, are left with thicker edges on softer steels because the kitchen work here is generally harder on knives than over there so more support is needed at the edge which has to be more forgiving.

However if you want that type of design here it isn't impossible or even difficult to find.

-Cliff

The problem with North American custom kitchen knives isn't quality. The problem is a lack of understanding of proper balance and ergonomics. No, I'm not going to mention any names. Most of these people make first class sporting fixed blades and I'm not interested in throwing any stones at someone's reputation. I would recommend any of them as an excellent source for a sporting knife.

Grinding isn't the answer, by the way. Japanese gyutos gain much of their perfect balance from bolsters that are forge welded to the blade. If there are custom makers that do that then you are right. I don't think it's practical to grind a knife from stock thick enough to accomodate that bolster. The Misono above has bolsters that are attached by pins, I suppose. That might be a practical solution for a custom maker. Another option is to make the handle thicker with thinner scales to counterbalance the blade. It isn't that it can't be done. It is that it isn't being done.

Except for the Nenox, all the knives pictured above are production knives. They are high end ones and more expensive than European knives but they are made in a production fashion.

The kitchen work here is not more demanding than it is in Japan. The requirements are the same. Japanese cooks butcher and chop and hack just like Western cooks do. I have used the Masamoto gyuto above to cut frozen pasta sauce in half by hitting the spine with a meat tenderizer. It handled it just fine. I wouldn't argue that the thin hard edges aren't more delicate than softer European edges but I also don't think they are too delicate.

I don't argue that a competent custom knife maker can't duplicate the performance of a Japanese gyuto. My point was that they haven't done it yet, at least from my experience. Now the question is could they do it for $200-$250, the U.S. list price of the Misono and Masamoto gyutos? Maybe so. Perhaps I'll take you up on the suggestion and see what I can get put together. It would be a fun project to be sure.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Japanese gyutos gain much of their perfect balance...

There is no such thing as perfect balance, center of mass on a knife is user preference and the maker can adjust it accordingly. I have used lots of western knives and have been very happy with the way some feel in hand, some of them were very cheap, like less than $10 and don't have bolsters.

I don't think it's practical to grind a knife from stock thick enough to accomodate that bolster.

You might want to look around more at stock removal knives, lots of them are massively thick.

It isn't that it can't be done. It is that it isn't being done.

So ask someone to do it the way you want it done. What you have now is that you like the feel of Japanese knives better than western knives and you have never asked a western maker to make one how you like it.

The kitchen work here is not more demanding than it is in Japan. The requirements are the same.

I didn't say it is more demanding, I said it is different. More red meat, more bone work, and much rougher work such as how they are washed and stored.

I wouldn't argue that the thin hard edges aren't more delicate than softer European edges but I also don't think they are too delicate.

Give them to the average western user for a couple of weeks and see what happens to them, I have, they get mauled. They are far too delicate for the average user which is why they are not made like that. Now when you move up to customs in the price range you listed the edge tend to get finer and the steels harder so the cutting ability goes up and the scope of work goes down. Handle ergonomics of course can be adjusted to user preference, just talk to the maker.

As for not naming makers, if there started being complaints in the GB&U with people complaining about your customer service but refusing to say who they were or give their order information, would you think that was fair, and would you think that people should pay attention to such complaints? No, probably not.

-Cliff

 

[nozh2002]

Honestly, Vassili, I don't see it happening here. The manufacturers in the U.S. are sending the manufacturing overseas rather than trying to innovate and improve products at home. I think we will see warikomi blades coming from China before we ever see one made in the U.S. I'm not familiar enough with the manufacturing technology to know what is involved but it may be that it requires a lot of hand work and you won't see that in the U.S. Instead of mechanizing hand work we just export the work.

Few years ago when there were no laminaed folders in US market I asked Sal on his forum why not to make them? Spyderco, as I thought, offers premium blades with resonablest plastic handles - like Delika, Endura etc. It seems logical to me to make premium laminated blade with plastic handle etc. Sal replayed - he do not see any value in laminated blades - then year after Fallkniven roll out U2 which has exactely premium laminated blade with reasonable plastic handle, (but without hole on the blade)... Now more and more blades like this came to the market - Kershaw has somethinf etc.

I am not sure what exactely Crusible doing, but they may put in the same form three layers of powder before cooking it into the blade, as Damasteel doing with powdered damascus, but not for pattern - for performance. like have CPV S60V in core ans 420 on the sides.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Knife Outlet]

There is no such thing as perfect balance, center of mass on a knife is user preference and the maker can adjust it accordingly. I have used lots of western knives and have been very happy with the way some feel in hand, some of them were very cheap, like less than $10 and don't have bolsters.


You might want to look around more at stock removal knives, lots of them are massively thick.


So ask someone to do it the way you want it done. What you have now is that you like the feel of Japanese knives better than western knives and you have never asked a western maker to make one how you like it.


I didn't say it is more demanding, I said it is different. More red meat, more bone work, and much rougher work such as how they are washed and stored.


Give them to the average western user for a couple of weeks and see what happens to them, I have, they get mauled. They are far too delicate for the average user which is why they are not made like that. Now when you move up to customs in the price range you listed the edge tend to get finer and the steels harder so the cutting ability goes up and the scope of work goes down. Handle ergonomics of course can be adjusted to user preference, just talk to the maker.

As for not naming makers, if there started being complaints in the GB&U with people complaining about your customer service but refusing to say who they were or give their order information, would you think that was fair, and would you think that people should pay attention to such complaints? No, probably not.

-Cliff

Here is what I mean by perfect balance. You are right that balance is a function of where the user grips the knife and is also a personal preference thing. However, the proper way to grip a chef knife (as taught in culinary schools) is to pinch the blade just in front of the bolster between the thumb and forefinger and then use the remaining three fingers to control the handle. The balance should be at that point right in front of the bolster. That may not be right for everyone but it is right for the majority of people who grip the knife in that fashion. Yes the balance point can be adjusted but the default balance point should be where I described it. This is not true of slicing knives and other types. It is the way chef knives should be balanced without any other input. Yes, I understand balance can be achieved without a bolster. I said so in my post above. Global knives are all "perfectly balanced" by using sand in a hollow handle. The Messermeister Park Plaza 10" chef knife balances right where it should without a bolster. It has a thick tang like I described earlier.

I realize many stock removal knives are massively thick. Gyutos should be massively thin. There would be plenty of grinding to do. I think it would make more sense to add bolsters or use a thick tang.

I'm going to take you up on the suggestion you make in the next paragraph. No argument.

I don't want to get into an argument about what goes on in commercial kitchens. I've been in a lot of them. Most knives are abused there. There is no need for them to be abused. You may want to talk to some of the chefs at http://www.foodieforums.com who use "delicate" Japanese cutlery every day in fast paced American commercial kitchens. It might help you understand that the knives don't need to be mauled and aren't by people who own the knives they use in kitchens. Let's not forget we're talking here about knives that are owned by the people who use them.

I'm not complaining about any custom makers so I have no interest in anybody believing a complaint. There is no complaint. I simply answered your question early on by telling you that custom makers made unsatisfactory kitchen knives - as a group. It has nothing to do with their ability. It has to do with a lack of knowledge on their part about kitchen knives, I think. They make outstanding sporting knives so there is no issue with their ability. I don't question that these makers could make a knife that performs like a Japanese gyuto. I just said they haven't done it. Maybe we'll get one of them to do it. So I'm not complaining at all and have no motivation to name names. Sorry.

Your'e a tough customer, Cliff, but I'll wear you down in time. I've always enjoyed your commentary on your knife tests. Perhaps we need to get you testing more kitchen cutlery.

 

[HoB]

Knife outlet: I take the one on the right, thank you . Beautiful!!!

 

[Knife Outlet]

Few years ago when there were no laminaed folders in US market I asked Sal on his forum why not to make them? Spyderco, as I thought, offers premium blades with resonablest plastic handles - like Delika, Endura etc. It seems logical to me to make premium laminated blade with plastic handle etc. Sal replayed - he do not see any value in laminated blades - then year after Fallkniven roll out U2 which has exactely premium laminated blade with reasonable plastic handle, (but without hole on the blade)... Now more and more blades like this came to the market - Kershaw has somethinf etc.

I am not sure what exactely Crusible doing, but they may put in the same form three layers of powder before cooking it into the blade, as Damasteel doing with powdered damascus, but not for pattern - for performance. like have CPV S60V in core ans 420 on the sides.

Thanks, Vassili.

Let's talk about the purpose of warikomi a little. This technology grew out of kasumi construction in traditional Japanese cutlery. Kasumi takes a piece of hard carbon steel as a hagane and forge welds it to a soft iron jigane. The main purpose is to provide a knife that is cheaper than one forged from solid hard carbon steel (honyaki) and to make the knife easier to maintain. It is easier because the hard steel is thinner than it is on a honyaki knife.

Warikomi is really just the Japanese equivalent of kasumi with stainless steel. The original warikomi knives had hard carbon steel at the core and stainless on the exterior. The purpose was to make a corrosion resistant knife that had a hard edge.

With the advent of harder stainless alloys, the need for warikomi isn't as apparent. Steels like VG-10 make a tough, durable blade that is both corrosion resistant and hard at the edge. S30V here in the U.S. accomplishes the same thing. You still see warikomi blades with hard stainless in the interior and soft stainless on the exterior. That is partly because of tradition.

If you decide you want to make a blade of a very hard "stainless steel" like ZDP189 or Cowry Y, then Warikomi becomes useful again. It makes the blade less expensive (these hard stainless steels are pricey) and it also lends some toughness to what would be a reasonably brittle blade. But for most applications with most modern stainless steels, I don't think warikomi is necessary. So I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about it. If you buy knives with steels that are appropriate for the intended use of the product, they can probably be made without resorting to warikomi lamination.

 

[Knife Outlet]

OK, Cliff, I posted a proposal on the custom forum. We'll see what happens.

 

[Larrin]

Let's talk about the purpose of warikomi a little. This technology grew out of kasumi construction in traditional Japanese cutlery. Kasumi takes a piece of hard carbon steel as a hagane and forge welds it to a soft iron jigane. The main purpose is to provide a knife that is cheaper than one forged from solid hard carbon steel (honyaki) and to make the knife easier to maintain. It is easier because the hard steel is thinner than it is on a honyaki knife.

Warikomi is really just the Japanese equivalent of kasumi with stainless steel. The original warikomi knives had hard carbon steel at the core and stainless on the exterior. The purpose was to make a corrosion resistant knife that had a hard edge.

With the advent of harder stainless alloys, the need for warikomi isn't as apparent. Steels like VG-10 make a tough, durable blade that is both corrosion resistant and hard at the edge. S30V here in the U.S. accomplishes the same thing. You still see warikomi blades with hard stainless in the interior and soft stainless on the exterior. That is partly because of tradition.

If you decide you want to make a blade of a very hard "stainless steel" like ZDP189 or Cowry Y, then Warikomi becomes useful again. It makes the blade less expensive (these hard stainless steels are pricey) and it also lends some toughness to what would be a reasonably brittle blade. But for most applications with most modern stainless steels, I don't think warikomi is necessary. So I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about it. If you buy knives with steels that are appropriate for the intended use of the product, they can probably be made without resorting to warikomi lamination.

I don't agree. 420 is very tough (as you should know), and at 50-55 rockwell or so is as tough as many carbon steels. It would add to the performance of just about any stainless to have 420 on the sides, and when it is a very thin core steel, most of the toughness would be from the 420, while the core would do all of the cutting. I think san-mai can be a very high-performance steel, even if it is S30V in the core rather than ZDP-189.

 

[Knife Outlet]

I don't agree. 420 is very tough (as you should know), and at 50-55 rockwell or so is as tough as many carbon steels. It would add to the performance of just about any stainless to have 420 on the sides, and when it is a very thin core steel, most of the toughness would be from the 420, while the core would do all of the cutting. I think san-mai can be a very high-performance steel, even if it is S30V in the core rather than ZDP-189.

I wasn't suggesting that laminating steels didn't produce toughness and high performance. I was suggesting that some of the steels like S30V or D2 will provide that without lamination. I have many warikomi style kitchen knives and many that are not - like the ones shown above. For kitchen use the ones that are not perform as well as the ones that are.

Kitchen knives aren't subjected to much lateral stress. Neither is a pocket knife. Toughness isn't such a big issue. Now a camp knife, I think, would benefit from anything that you can do to add to the toughness of the blade while retainin its ability to hold an edge. So laminating a hard core with a soft exterior would make more sense in that application. I'm not arguing with you. I like laminated blades. But I honestly think there is less reason for them than there was in the past and I see the Japanese using them less and less.

 

[Larrin]

I've just been thinking about san-mai lately. I want to make a titanium outsides with S30V or CPM-154 core someday.

 

[Jeff Clark]

I think that American knife buyers have been sold a bill of goods about the value of heavy forged bolsters and comparitively heavy blades on premium German knives. This influences semi-custom hand made kitchen knives in this country as well. The public is used to "quality knives" that not only allow you to chop with the blade they are so obtuse that they force you to chop with the blade. The American public is also very used to using dull knives. The net result is that they have bad habits of using any and all knives like cleavers.

One solution is to simply give them nothing but cleavers to work with. I would just give each user one cleaver and 6 Japanese style thin blades. Let them wreck a couple thin blades and learn to use the cleaver to split bones. The thin blades with harder alloys are the way to go.

One of the big issues for custom makers is that they don't have access to nicely thin rolled steel stock. It is not only a big hastle to grind a tapered blade out of 1/8-inch stock, it tends to warp as you work. You are best off if the blade starts from stock that is rolled to the right thickness and maybe rolled or machine stamped to give you much of your blade bevel. Grinding just doesn't fit this thin product.

 

[Pinoy Knife]

Fred ( knife outlet )
you know me from the other place . i have to agree with only 1 thing so far in this post MOST custom guy's dont grind the same way as the Japanese but there are a few . i don't see why there need's to be a east beat's west thing going on here ? Why well maybe it is beacuse "American's " cut thing's more like our European ancestor's . i Agree with Cliff here tell Maker's what you will use it for and ask them to make it , the Japanese have alway's sought perfection in a lot of thing's . being smug is a big insult to them or us . i have done some reaserch on what the "Pro's " use and want everyone told me S-30v it took me longer than i expected to do but i made the shapes everyone said ( no one cared ) if the chef want's something better than a Mass produced crappy soft steel Blade they need to speak up in volume not just talk smack about " American Bad Japanese Good . Let's see here we got Thomas Hassingler / Murry Carter /Coope. many more who have proven that a GREAT kitchen knife is possible . Cliff you have used My blade before and understand im not one to talk without merit Correct ? Now ill go chew on my foot a little :footinmou

 

[DaveH]

I think I would like to embrace the harder, thinner, sharper more expensive mantra, but I'd have to change how I (we) use, care, and store our kitchen knives. To be honest I'm not sure we cook (or care) enough to do that.

The idea of a passaround intrigues me, but I think it would be costly and risky.

 

[Knife Outlet]

Fred ( knife outlet )
you know me from the other place . i have to agree with only 1 thing so far in this post MOST custom guy's dont grind the same way as the Japanese but there are a few . i don't see why there need's to be a east beat's west thing going on here ? Why well maybe it is beacuse "American's " cut thing's more like our European ancestor's . i Agree with Cliff here tell Maker's what you will use it for and ask them to make it , the Japanese have alway's sought perfection in a lot of thing's . being smug is a big insult to them or us . i have done some reaserch on what the "Pro's " use and want everyone told me S-30v it took me longer than i expected to do but i made the shapes everyone said ( no one cared ) if the chef want's something better than a Mass produced crappy soft steel Blade they need to speak up in volume not just talk smack about " American Bad Japanese Good . Let's see here we got Thomas Hassingler / Murry Carter /Coope. many more who have proven that a GREAT kitchen knife is possible . Cliff you have used My blade before and understand im not one to talk without merit Correct ? Now ill go chew on my foot a little :footinmou

After spending a few years with Japanese cutlery I've gotten inflamed with a desire to "reform" kitchen cutlery making. If it sounds smug, I apologize. I am just very confident in my position. But you are probably right. Nobody cares but me. It's easy to try to turn enthusiasm into action but it isn't always a good idea. I'm probably better off sticking with the other enthusiasts and leaving the general public alone with my passion for Japanese kitchen cutlery. In fact I hereby promise to do so. Thanks for the heavy dose of realism. This proposal was a bad idea, I think. Sorry. Take care.

 

[Pinoy Knife]

Fred
i will never ask anyone to give up a "Knife Quest " of any type .
i think a good idea might just be to have a couple different maker's make you something special just for the kitchen . then and only then make a desicion ( Sp) i know for a fact that there are many " makers" out there who are very capable of making some real sweet stuff . my claim is simple tell me what you will use it for and i can make it ! there are people out there like me im sure . on the Japanese Good / America bad thing ive met and shook hand's with one of your favorite maker's Mike Sinichi Wantabee . my impression is this the guy can sharpen a blade like a laser . very tradional in desigh and component's , that doesn't make him better than a american version of him does it ? im not trying to start anything here with anyone i as a maker would appreciate it if you would try other's before making comment's about the Japanese making the best blades in the world .i will agree with you that a lot of maker's do leave the Edge way too thick . im on the side of Super Hard super thin ground edges are the way to go . maybe i can help you change some peoples mind's on this .

 

[Knife Outlet]

Thanks, Matt. Glad we had a chance to talk on the phone today to hash out some of the problems with kitchen cutlery made by North American custom makers. I think we have an understanding and I'm glad you're going to take the project of making an American gyuto. I'm looking forward to it.

I have several of Watanabe's knives and they are excellent. His specialty is selling "kuroichi" style knives fairly inexpensively. He's capable of making traditional Japanese knives with the best of them, though. A lot of Americans haven't seen his best work. It's pretty impressive. But he doesn't make gyutos like you're going to make. He makes no Western style knives at all - only hand forged traditional patterns. I have a blue steel Wa gyuto on order with him now which is the gyuto but with a traditional stick tang and handle. Take care.

 

[Sid Post]

Just to chime in on the end of this thread....I used German knives for a long time with complete satisfaction when I finally moved to Wusthof Grand Prix models. Then I dabbled in Japanese steel from Muray Carter (Muteki) and Tojiro. I made the conversion very fast.

Points have been made about price which may be miss leading.

My Tojiro Gyuto and my Wusthof Chef's knife cost the same within a small margin. I still have my Wusthof knives stored somewhere but, I don't really use them much these days. My Tojiro DP at $~55 knife is just a better tool.

I don't intend to argue East verus West is good versus bad but, most mass produced knives have balance problems as mentioned, heavy bolsters which I really dislike now, soft blades (~57RC and below), and really thick edges. Take your favorite hunting knife and the Wusthof parer in your block and compare them. Where are they different in terms of design and grind?

So yes, if the kids want to take a parer out to the back yard and dig up rocks, the Wusthof will take it better because it is softer and thicker. It will also slice a ripe tomatoe if you know how to sharpen a knife.

If I had a choice between any factory made knife made outside of Japan and the Tojiro DP, I would pick the Tojiro DP everytime. For me personally, an entry level Tojiro DP is better then anything I have used that was a production knife available in the USA.

When you start talking about custom made knives for the kitchen, I'll take a better Japanese production made knife for a fraction of the cost everytime. If money was no object, I would still opt for a Japanese blade today.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...the knives don't need to be mauled and aren't by people who own the knives they use in kitchens.

Fred, I own knives that are much thinner than the Japanese knives you listed, with more acute edges and harder and more brittle steels and I use them in the kitchen all the time.

However if I was to pass those blades around here, they would simply get mauled. Personally they are great, but I would never attempt to sell them to the public here.

As for Chef's using blades, that is really a side issue, how much of the kitchen knife market is actually to chef's and how much is to just normal people cooking.

That is why the vast majority of western kitchen knives are thicker edges with softer steels. But actually most of the chef's I know use the same junk knives, same with butcher and so on. Whatever is provided for them usually.

It has to do with a lack of knowledge on their part about kitchen knives...

Maybe they just have a different viewpoint. I have used the grip you describe on Chefs knives, it isn't the one I prefer for everything and no one here uses it. Most makers tend to grind their stock patterns based on what works for them, or the vast majority of their customers.

I don't question that these makers could make a knife that performs like a Japanese gyuto. I just said they haven't done it.

I'd just give them one, it is a simple design, they would be able to make you an identical looking blade, just be very specific on the performance you want regarding the balance point, ergonomic issues and edge profile.

Back to my point just to restate it, Japanese make great kitchen knives, hell they make great sharpn instruements in general, axes, knives, even saws. However I would argue simply that the main difference between western and japanese styles isn't due to inability or lack of knowledge on the part of the makers, but simply towards crafting a different goal. Let a decent western maker know what that goal is and they should be able to satisfy it.

Comparing japanese kitchen knives to western ones where the makers don't specialize in kitchen knives is also kind of a biased comparison, you would expect that to favor the japanese knives simply due to maker experience. Look at some western custom makers like the ones I listed who have an extensive line of kitchen knives and which is a major part of their focus.

-Cliff